Blaming the System for Player/GM actions

[Zhaleskra]

Is it fair to blame a game system for player and GM decisions, such as the ever infamous min/maxing?

Personally, I feel it is part of the GM's job to prevent system abuses.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Of course it's not fair blame anyone but the active participants for faults with basic gameplay.

 

[Turanil]

It's all D&D 3.5 fault of course!

Other games: it's the players' fault.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Turanil, you sirrah, have amused me.

 

[Faraer]

This is the exactly the false dichotomy by which some people argue that because a game system doesn't determine how you play, it doesn't influence it at all.

Fair to blame, obviously not. Fair to criticize as a factor, obviously so.

 

[The Shaman]

Personally, I feel it is part of the GM's job to prevent system abuses.

To which many gamers will respond, "Nerfing is unfair! It's the GM's job to find ways to counter whatever we come up with. I bought this shiny new official book, so it's balanced and part of the game!"

:\

 

[jmucchiello]

Actually, what does fairness have to do with it? If someone perceives the problem as the game system, who are we to say they are wrong? The way something is written can and does influence how you interact with it. Rule systems are no less capable of influencing action.

Given that, I still voted no.

 

[Zhaleskra]

To which many gamers will respond, "Nerfing is unfair! It's the GM's job to find ways to counter whatever we come up with. I bought this shiny new official book, so it's balanced and part of the game!"

:\

Which is a good argument for why the GM should say what books will be allowed before the game even starts. Actually, I'm pretty lenient, I'll allow something if I understand how it works and it fits in with the theme.

I once bought every shiny new book, but I learned a hard financial lesson from doing that with AD&D2E. As was my plan when D&D3.0 came out, my d20 collection never got very big.

Such players would generally not to be asked to play in a game I was running, and if one developed in that way, he would be asked to leave.

I remember once, I wanted to use a shiny new book, and the DM told me "The first rule is, don't **** off the DM."

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Is it fair to blame a game system for player and GM decisions, such as the ever infamous min/maxing?

Personally, I feel it is part of the GM's job to prevent system abuses.

There was a four or five page thread recently where a DM tried to do that, and he was flamed for daring to try to control his campaign.

There was another thread recently (about the same length) where a DM complained about an overpowered PC and was supported. This board is weird sometimes.

IMO, the system should try to control for min-maxing. Most DMs aren't game designers, and have to trust the authors to put out balanced (meaning useful and not overpowered) material. Unfortunately, often this isn't the case, as thousands of threads complaining about products or pieces of products proclaim. Sometimes the DM doesn't realize there is a problem (or underestimates its impact). I know for my D20 Modern campaigns I had to house rule the Sunder rules three time until they were balanced.

 

[The Shaman]

Which is a good argument for why the GM should say what books will be allowed before the game even starts.

Have you read this yet?

I'm in full agreement with you on the game master's perogatives, Zhaleskra, as I make clear in the other thread, and I think your approach...

...I'll allow something if I understand how it works and it fits in with the theme.

...is fundamentally sound.

I think many, perhaps most, gamers attracted to more complex roleplaying game systems expect increasing complexity in the form of additional "options" (= more rules) over time. My impression is that increasing complexity is driven by gamers, and system complexity increases to meet the demand, which in turn consolidates these gamers around the system. The result is an increasingly stratified group of gamers, from "core only" to "just these x supplements" to "ANYTHING GOES! WAHOO!"

My gut feeling tells me that this makes it harder for gamers to find players with like styles, resulting in conflict and disappointment when expectations aren't met, whether those expectations are for less complexity or more.