Esker
Hero
What is the specific here that conflicts with the general rules about spell targeting?
D&D 5E Bless Spell and Total Cover / Line of Sight
What is the specific here that conflicts with the general rules about spell targeting?
RAW seems pretty clear at least in my opinion.
Bless can target up to three creatures within range. It does not require you to be able to see them. The general rules for targeting spells indicate that you can't target a creature behind total cover. (It is an entirely separate argument as to what might constitute total cover in some circumstances but lets assume the creature is around a corner behind a stone wall with no ability to see them).
In this case, although they are in range, they are behind total cover and are not a valid target.
However, bless does not require you to be able to see the target, so if the caster is blinded, the targets are invisible, the characters are all in darkness or a fog cloud, bless can still affect three creatures within range who are not behind total cover.
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Whether bless can target a hidden creature within range who is not behind total cover is a DM call. 5e rules aren't exhaustive and the DM has to step in at some points. In this case, the caster might say that they cast bless on the rogue (who is hidden and the caster may not know exactly where they are) and the DM might then indicate that they aren't a valid target (because they aren't in range anymore) and the DM can decide whether the caster can choose an alternate target or not. It can easily be roleplayed or explained as the character knowing as part of the spell casting what creature they choose might be an available target for the spell when they try to apply it to that creature. (It is a divine spell after all
).
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Finally, whenever a creature attacks it reveals where it is. That creature does not become hidden again unless it successfully takes the hide action. Under these circumstance, the characters know where the target is but attacks suffer disadvantage because they can not see it. Invisible creatures do not get to move around and attack with impunity without revealing their location (at least RAW). A DM is welcome to play it some other way if they prefer but the example of an invisible stalker which the characters constantly lose track of is not RAW. Even the invisible stalker description states:
"A creature might hear and feel an invisible stalker in passing, but the elemental remains invisible even when it attacks."
The presence of the invisible stalker can be heard and felt so unless it takes an action to be particularly quiet and move slowly leaving no trace, represented by a successful stealth check, the position of the stalker will be known to the characters.
Bless can target up to three creatures within range. It does not require you to be able to see them. The general rules for targeting spells indicate that you can't target a creature behind total cover. (It is an entirely separate argument as to what might constitute total cover in some circumstances but lets assume the creature is around a corner behind a stone wall with no ability to see them).
In this case, although they are in range, they are behind total cover and are not a valid target.
However, bless does not require you to be able to see the target, so if the caster is blinded, the targets are invisible, the characters are all in darkness or a fog cloud, bless can still affect three creatures within range who are not behind total cover.
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Whether bless can target a hidden creature within range who is not behind total cover is a DM call. 5e rules aren't exhaustive and the DM has to step in at some points. In this case, the caster might say that they cast bless on the rogue (who is hidden and the caster may not know exactly where they are) and the DM might then indicate that they aren't a valid target (because they aren't in range anymore) and the DM can decide whether the caster can choose an alternate target or not. It can easily be roleplayed or explained as the character knowing as part of the spell casting what creature they choose might be an available target for the spell when they try to apply it to that creature. (It is a divine spell after all
).-------------
Finally, whenever a creature attacks it reveals where it is. That creature does not become hidden again unless it successfully takes the hide action. Under these circumstance, the characters know where the target is but attacks suffer disadvantage because they can not see it. Invisible creatures do not get to move around and attack with impunity without revealing their location (at least RAW). A DM is welcome to play it some other way if they prefer but the example of an invisible stalker which the characters constantly lose track of is not RAW. Even the invisible stalker description states:
"A creature might hear and feel an invisible stalker in passing, but the elemental remains invisible even when it attacks."
The presence of the invisible stalker can be heard and felt so unless it takes an action to be particularly quiet and move slowly leaving no trace, represented by a successful stealth check, the position of the stalker will be known to the characters.
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DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
I disagree for the very reason of the passage I quoted. If you attack in a space where you think an invisible creature is, that attack is with disadvantage. If you attack a space, but the creature isn't there, you automatically miss. It is right there in the text of the PHB. I you automatically know its location why have the rule?
You are basically saying the invisible stalker could walk/fly yo to someone, and unless it is trying to be stealthy, you "know" its location...
In the case of the Invisible Stalker, once it attacked, it moved; and we had no idea where it was--what space it had moved to. We made perception checks to try to find out if we could guess accurately.
But, perhaps, this is a reason why such a creature should be able to stealth as a bonus action? It isn't really hiding, it is trying to be quiet. Honestly, it was almost a year ago, and maybe the DM did have it attack one round and then hide then next?
I should also point out that with Stealth +10, and the disadvantage for being invisible (the -5 adjustment), without even rolling a DM could rule you would need a passive perception of 15 or higher to notice it without making a check. Just a thought--there is really no rule to cover it.
If invisible creatures don't move around and take advantage of their ability, then you have a very kind DM.
The stalker attacks, and can move/ fly up to 50 feet away without provoking an OA (since it can't be seen). We have no way of knowing where it went because it can move slowly even if it doesn't use its action to hide (which in this case is really moving "quietly"). Remember, in 5E, movement is movement. Unless you take the "Dash" action, nothing says your movement is "quick" or anything like it.
Now, the passage you quote about the stalker is true. And that is how we defeated it. Everyone started Readying their action to attack when the stalker struck. THAT is when we knew (or had a good idea anyway) what space it was likely in, and could make attacks with disadvantage. Prior to that, we were rolling Perception checks so see if we could determine what direction it was in. If we did, we attacked with disadvantage; if we failed, we guessed. Then we started using the Ready action.
(Note: a perception check is made to notice something, not just when something is hidden or invisible. That is why our DM allowed us to try to find it by hearing checks.)
Your interpretation of the rule is fine, but again in 5E a lot of rules are open to interpretation and not "RAW". While there are rules for the game, adjudicating them using common sense is how we play.
Esker
Hero
You don't know its location if it is hidden from you, in which case the passage you quoted kicks in. But it has to have taken the hide action to become hidden.
In that same section it also says, "If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
Yes, because there are senses other than sight. If it makes a stealth check that beats your passive perception (at disadvantage), then you don't know it's there. But once it attacks, it reveals its position.
I understand that this is how your DM ran it, but RAW its location is only unknown if it has taken the hide action, and once it attacks it reveals its position, including after it moves, until it hides again.
Taking the hide action mostly is about trying to be quiet; in order to take the action in the first place you already have to be out of sight (heavily obscured, invisible, behind total cover, facing a blinded foe, or having some feature that lets you hide in other contexts, such as Mask of the Wild, the Skulker feat, or similar).
I think the case that an invisible stalker ought to be able to hide as a bonus action is entirely reasonable, but some creatures were given that ability and it wasn't. So make of that what you will.
jasper
Rotten DM
The spell description is specific. Range 30. Aka I am being a nice dm.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
@Esker
Ok, this is becoming a waste of time. RAW can be interpreted in different ways as you know and that is why 5E, for better or worse, is about rulings and not rules. You think one way, I think another, I am letting it go at that. We could argue both views forever and never make any headway, so I see no point.
Talk to you later (about something else).
Ok, this is becoming a waste of time. RAW can be interpreted in different ways as you know and that is why 5E, for better or worse, is about rulings and not rules. You think one way, I think another, I am letting it go at that. We could argue both views forever and never make any headway, so I see no point.
Talk to you later (about something else).
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
No. All spells, unless they state otherwise (for example sacred flame, fireball), need line of effect..
Enevhar Aldarion
Hero
And a lot of people interpret the rules the opposite. If the spell covers an area and does not specify line of sight is required, then the target does not need to be physically visible to the caster, but rather just somewhere in the area of effect. Bless has a 30 foot radius, centered on the caster, so any ally within 30 feet is a valid target, whether in front of you, behind you, invisible, or on the other side of a closed door. If the caster knows they are there, they can choose them for the effect.
Esker
Hero
But Bless doesn't have a 30' radius, it has a 30' range. It is no more an area of effect spell than a firebolt, since you target individual creatures. So, RAW, you need a path to the targets, and they can't be behind closed doors (but they can be behind you, or even invisible). Perfectly reasonable to use a different rule, but that's what the actual text says.
