Blindness

[Nytmare]

Question: Why do blindness and invisibility not have the same basic penalties?

Answer: They do.

Well, having invisibility work 0% of the time to completely hide someone is stupid.

And having invisibility work 100% of the time is stupid because unless you're putting forth some effort, you're still making sounds and therefore, are not unfindable by players who deal with magic crazy stuff like that on a fairly regular basis.

So you need a system that sets a number between 0 and 100%. And having it be at 50% for someone untrained in sneakery to try to do so is a fair place. He's untrained in sneaking, so he shouldn't have the advantage, obviously.

So, you need -a- system... and hey, there's a skill for sneaking, and a skill for perception. Bully!

But, as said in other threads, if you're the sort of wizard who does this sort of thing regularly, then having the skill Sneak trained is not only plausible, it's implausible to think you -would not- and is, in fact, BAD roleplay, as you're trying to say your character has no interest in training in something he actually wants to be able to do.

Who exactly are you fighting with? I feel like I should be defending myself, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it is that you're saying.

 

[Destil]

I see, i think i may have misunderstood then.

So to clarify, when a creature is blind, he takes a -5 to attacks on all creatures.

While a creature with Invis, gets a "+5 to all defenses" from all creatures that cant see it?

Also, remember these numbers only apply to melee and ranged attacks. Close and area attacks don't suffer a penalty.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually, there is a good reason to allow a stealth check as part of a move(action)

If you didn´t (at least pretend) to move, it is easy to guess where the person stands.

With the use of passive perception rolling dice is minimized, so the machanics work in reasonable way.


As a DM i would grant bonuses orpenalties to the stealth check depending on the ground and enviroment.

Becoming invisible on solid ground which leaves no impression can reasonably grant a bonus to the stealth check, when becoming invisible while standing in knee deep water should apply a big penalty.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Hmm, to clarify more:

If you become invisible, or blind your target, then as the last action of your turn,
shift 1 square, are you stealthed then? They wouldn't know what square you were
in after the move...

Thanks!

PS Hmm, since they can't see you either way, I guess you wouldn't have to shift
to avoid an OA?

 

[DracoSuave]

Hmm, to clarify more:

If you become invisible, or blind your target, then as the last action of your turn,
shift 1 square, are you stealthed then? They wouldn't know what square you were
in after the move...

If that shift was taken as the result of a move action? Yes. All that matters is the move action part. You don't even have to -move- as that move action. You just have to take a move action of any sort.

Thanks!

PS Hmm, since they can't see you either way, I guess you wouldn't have to shift
to avoid an OA?

Correctamundo!

 

[Nytmare]

Hmm, to clarify more:

If you become invisible, or blind your target, then as the last action of your turn, shift 1 square, are you stealthed then? They wouldn't know what square you were in after the move...

I don't think that you technically even need to move (though getting away from where they knew you were last standing is probably a good idea). All you need to do is spend the move action and make the stealth check. Also remember that moving more than 2 squares gives you a penalty.

[EDIT] Also, what he said.

 

[eamon]

When...

1. You make any move action (or use one of the common powers that explicitly grant you a stealth check)
2. and You have total concealment (fog, darkness, blind opponent(s), invisibility) or superior cover (that isn't granted by allies*) against at least one creature at the end of that move action
3. then You make a stealth check (with a -5 penalty for moving more than 2 squares, -10 for running)
4. For each creature for which #1 holds, if your checks succeeds vs. passive perception, you have stealth: That means you're invisible to the target and it can't perceive the square you're in (but it might guess where you are, particularly if you didn't move).
5. If at any time you have neither normal concealment nor normal cover (cover granted by allies doesn't count), you lose stealth. Opponents can also make a minor action active perception check to try and locate you anyhow - so remember your stealth check value!

[sblock=*]Actually, the rules don't literally prevent you from making a stealth check if only obscured by allies, but this is generally taken to be the intent, and usually you'd instantly lose steath anyhow since you can't sustain stealth by hiding behind a creature.[/sblock]

You always have combat advantage if you're invisible, even without stealth, btw. Being blind imposes a -5 penalty to perception checks, so visible character has an easier time hiding from a blind opponent than an invisible character does from a sighted opponent. If you're trying to find a hidden opponent, it's entirely reasonable for allies to help you ("no, he's there"), which might be a bonus at the DM's disgression - and they can certainly point out the square the hidden enemy is in. Finally, you automatically find a hidden opponent if you try to enter his square...

A hidden creature is invisible to those he's hidden from. Although the rules don't explicitly say so, obviously this invisibility (which implies total concealment) doesn't itself provide the concealment needed to sustain stealth.

Example: There's a tree (grants cover) and an arrowslitted wall (superior cover) between you and the enemy. You can't move from the arrowslitted wall to behind the tree and try to stealth since at the end of the move you don't have superior cover. But if you move from the tree to behind the arrowslit, you can make a stealth check. If you succeed, you can sometime in the future move to just behind the tree - but if at any point during that move you lose cover or concealment, you lose stealth. Assume you succeed and are now hidden and behind the tree. Since stealth implies invisibility, you effectively have total concealment, and that stacks with cover. In short, if the enemy guesses the square you're in and you have cover from him, he get's a -5 (you're invisible to him) and a -2 (cover) to ranged attacks. Were he to attack with a close burst, he'd only suffer a -2 since the concealment doesn't matter. And if he attacks with an area burst, cover is determined from the origin square of the burst - probably no cover, so no penalty at all.

 

[Eternal54]

Best freaking explinationt ive seen of stealth yet! Still a little confused about some things but overall much clearer on the subject now, thank you! I would probably have to see all this take place to fully graso the concept.

 

[MarkB]

Hmm, to clarify more:

If you become invisible, or blind your target, then as the last action of your turn,
shift 1 square, are you stealthed then? They wouldn't know what square you were
in after the move...

If you shifted as a move action, and made a Stealth check that beat their passive Perception, then yes. If not, then no - you didn't move stealthily enough, and gave away your new position, possibly by the sound of your footsteps, or the parting of grass stems as you moved through them, or the dust kicked up by your shoes, or other such subtle clues.

 

[eamon]

Best freaking explinationt ive seen of stealth yet! Still a little confused about some things but overall much clearer on the subject now, thank you! I would probably have to see all this take place to fully graso the concept.

Just to be clear; I didn't include every last rule in that summary (like that making loud noises or attacking automatically ends stealth) - it's just the executive summary with the non-obvious bits highlighted.