blindsight and flanking bonuses

[hong]

My understanding of flanking is that in normal situations if you are flanked you cannot "see" both opponents at the same time and therefore you cannot react to both since one opponent is always at a "blindspot."

With blindsight, one can "see" all around, without any blindspots, therefore react to two separate opponents, even if on opposite sides, just as one without blindsight could react to 2 opponents in front of him/her at the same time without any penalties.

The issue isn't whether you can see all round. When you're flanked, you have to divide your attention between two opponents on opposite sides of you, and so can't react as well as you could have otherwise.

Blindsight is essentially the ability to see invisible things, no more, no less. If something isn't invisible (or hiding), blindsight is confers no particular advantages over normal sight.

 

[dr_nukem]

Blindsight is essentially the ability to see invisible things, no more, no less. If something isn't invisible (or hiding), blindsight is confers no particular advantages over normal sight.

Out of curiousity...does Blindsight specifically state you can see hidden people? As per my question on this board earlier, does hidden = invisibility?

In my opinion, Blindsight does NOT protect you from being flanked. If that was the intention of the feat, it would say so. There are several other feats/abilities that deny your enemies the ability to flank you. They state that specifically in their description. Blindsight is not on that list...

Your opponents do not get the +2 to attack you, but they WOULD get a +2 if they flanked you and you WOULD be subject to a rogue's sneak attack, if he flanked you as well...

Them's the rules...or at the very least, my interpretation of them... :->

 

[kreynolds]

Magus,

Thanks for the response, you inadvertently helped me out with your response. Under the robe of eyes, and I quote...

"She retains her Dexterity bonus to Dexterity bonus to AC even when flat-footed and can't be flanked"

Therefore no +2 bonus, and no rogue sneak attacks while wearing the robe of eyes. Blindsight = 360 vision, therefore blindsight negates flanking and sneak attacks...

Congratulations. You just took a partially incorrect opinion and decided upon a completely incorrect ruling.

 

[pit fiend]

Magus, some blindsights depend on hearing, do people have 360 degree hearing?

Hong, you are incorrect. Simply having to divide your attention to opponents on opposite sides is not enough to get flanking bonuses. If that were the case then you should be able to flank a guy with a robe of eyes, but you can't, it says so. You can surround a guy who has all-around vision with 8 guys and NONE of the 8 get any bonuses, no +2 bonus, no rogue sneak attacks, nothing, and that guy has to divide his attention over 8 opponents!!!

Also look at the psion power, Ubiquitous Vision. Simply being able to see in a 360 deg arc and being able to react to opponents on any side spoils flanking.

Hong, you are also incorrect when you state that blindsight confers no advantages over normal sight (except for seeing invisiblity.) If you have blindsight thats dependent on hearing, and you hear an opponent behind you, you can react to that opponent behind you, hearing works in a 360 degree arc (at least for me it does). Seems better than normal vision...

 

[kreynolds]

You can surround a guy who has all-around vision with 8 guys and NONE of the 8 get any bonuses, no +2 bonus, no rogue sneak attacks, nothing, and that guy has to divide his attention over 8 opponents!!!

Not if he has only Blindsight. Look up the beholder in the MM. The Robe of Eyes essentially gives you the same ability the beholder has, ALL-AROUND VISION. Now, do me a favor and look closely at the spelling of that ability. It's not the same as BLINDSIGHT, is it? These are two completely different abilities.

 

[The Souljourner]

Gotta go with kreynolds here, you're wrong, Pit Fiend.

Why? Robe of Eyes specifically states that it negates flanking bonuses. Blindsight does not. Period. There's nothing else to consider. If the designers intended to have blindsight negate flanking, they would have said it does.

-The Souljourner

 

[Darklone]

Examples

I second that blindsight does not help against flanking.

As well: I don't think you automatically see hidden people with blindsight. Why should a bat notice someone who does not move much behind a boulder? You could see the same person with your eyes if he peers over the boulder, you don't need the sonar sense of the bat. You merely have to look there attentively.

But it all depends how you consider it. Your ruling. But I would agree that the Robe of Eyes does help against flanking cause it says so and NOT cause it grants all round vision.

 

[drnuncheon]

Going to the source...

From the SRD:

BLINDSIGHT

Some creatures have the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and darkness (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.

Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks.

Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.

Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.

Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.

As you can see, there is nothing in the description of blindsight that suggests it aids you in any way against flanking.

Blindsight would prevent an invisible rogue from getting his sneak attack bonus on you (but a hidden rogue or one flanking you could still get it.)

J

 

[bret]

You might want to look at the elemental type.

Elementals can not be flanked. Unlike Oozes, they do not have blindsight.

The two capabilities are separate and independent of each other.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

therefore; seeing does not necessarily equal the ability to react to...

The fact that they had to state "you aren't flanked" with the robe of eyes should be proof sufficent for this.

Blindsight in and of itself lets you see invisible creatures - nothing more or less.

360 degree vision lets you see around in all directions.
Just because I can see it does not mean that I can react to that which I see.

what you are trying to do is state that blindsight = all around vision = immune to flanking.

NONE of those equivalencies apply in any direction under the rules - witness the need to specify both AAV and immune to flanking in the robe of eyes description.

to wit: NONE of the following are true:

blindsight -> AAV
blindsignt -> immune to flanking
AAV -> blindsight
AAV -> immune to flanking
immune to flanking -> AAV
Immune to flanking -> blindsight

all three abilities are separate and distinct.