blindsight and flanking bonuses

[pit fiend]

Magus,

Just because I can see it DOES mean that I can react to that which I see.

Take a look at Ubiquitous Vision in the psionics handbook, page 107: "In effect, you have a 360 degree sphere of sight, allowing you perfect view of creatures that might otherwise flank you. Thus, flanking opponents gain no bonuses to their attacks...and rogues are denied their sneak attack because you do not lose your bonus to Dexterity.

The way thats written is that BECAUSE one has a 360 degree view he CAN react to opponents flanking him. Therefore keep his dex bonus and negate flanking. Remember, the ONLY thing Ubiquitous Vision does is give all-around vision and no other powers like the "power to react to flanking opponents." It only gives all-around vision... and that is what negates flanking...

Therefore...
AAV -> immune to flanking

I guess what really determines whether or not a flankable person is being flanked is whether or not he can still use his dexterity.

So the real question is, can a monster with blindsight...
1. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly in front of him. YES...
2. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly behind him. Umm... YES...
3. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his left. Umm... YES...
4. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his right. Umm... YES...

If it looks like s**t, smells like s**t, and tastes like s**t...

Maybe, just maybe...
blindsight -> AAV

Don't sit there and tell me what the discription of blindsight does and doesn't say, think outside the box. Just because it's writen, doesn't mean it's right, or God wouldn't have invented errata's.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

I guess what really determines whether or not a flankable person is being flanked is whether or not he can still use his dexterity.

Nope - what matters when determining flanked or unflanked is that two hostile individauls be on either side of the character.

So the real question is, can a monster with blindsight...
1. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly in front of him. YES...
2. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly behind him. Umm... YES...
3. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his left. Umm... YES...
4. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his right. Umm... YES...

I am going to read can a monster with blindsight and only blindsight here.

yes - he can. but what he CAN"T do is specific combinations of these simultaneously: namely 1 and 2 or 3 and 4.

ergo -
blindsight = still flankable



That makes the monster flanked.

 

[Caliban]

Just because I can see it DOES mean that I can react to that which I see.

No, it doesn't. Being flat-footed for example, means that you cannot react even if you know it's coming.

Take a look at Ubiquitous Vision in the psionics handbook, page 107: "In effect, you have a 360 degree sphere of sight, allowing you perfect view of creatures that might otherwise flank you. Thus, flanking opponents gain no bonuses to their attacks...and rogues are denied their sneak attack because you do not lose your bonus to Dexterity.

That's nice, if you have Ubiquitous Vision. However, blindsight doesn't not have any text granting this ability, therefore it does not.

The way thats written is that BECAUSE one has a 360 degree view he CAN react to opponents flanking him.

No, it becaue you have the Ubiquitous Vision ability. The rest is just flavor text explaining the benefits of the ability. Blindsight does not grant this ability. If it did make you unflankable, it would say so.

Therefore keep his dex bonus and negate flanking. Remember, the ONLY thing Ubiquitous Vision does is give all-around vision and no other powers like the "power to react to flanking opponents." It only gives all-around vision... and that is what negates flanking...

Nope.

Therefore...
AAV -> immune to flanking

Nope. All around vision may be used as flavor text to explay why a specific power or ability makes you immune to flanking, but by itself it does not.

I guess what really determines whether or not a flankable person is being flanked is whether or not he can still use his dexterity.

Nope. Being flanked ahs absolutely no effect on a persons dexterity. It just gives the flanking opponents a +2 on their attack rolls against you, and allows a rogue to sneak attack you if you don't have an ability that makes you unflankable (i.e. uncanny dodge, and apparently ubiquitous vision.)

Blindsight does not list being unflankable as one of it's benefits, therefore it is not a benefit of blindsight.

So the real question is, can a monster with blindsight...
1. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly in front of him. YES...
2. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent directly behind him. Umm... YES...
3. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his left. Umm... YES...
4. keep his dex bonus if he fights a single opponent 90 degrees to his right. Umm... YES...

If it looks like s**t, smells like s**t, and tastes like s**t...

I think you need to read up on flanking some more. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have your dex bonus.

Maybe, just maybe...
blindsight -> AAV

Maybe. But AAV does not by itself make you unflankable.

Don't sit there and tell me what the discription of blindsight does and doesn't say, think outside the box. Just because it's writen, doesn't mean it's right, or God wouldn't have invented errata's.

Hey, your right! You know, I don't think that you should only get extra attacks at a +6 BAB. I think everytime my BAB increases I should get another attack, because it makes sense to me that every time my fighting skill increases I can attack faster. I'm sure what's in the PHB is wrong, and they will errata it to my satisfaction soon enough.

 

[pit fiend]

Caliban,

Since you seem to know what your talking about...
1. where-o-where is it written that all-around vision by itself is NOT proof against flanking? Do tell...
2. i don't seem to read much "flavor text" in Ubiquitous Vision, seems like straight forward game rulings to me, have you read it?
3. if you want a game with extra attacks every BAB, then go ahead and do it, that falls into game mechanics and there are no rights or wrongs, its a concept. but blindsight (and AAV) is a tangible REAL WORLD ability, ever watch animal planet?
4. maybe, blindsight as written needs to be cleared up, seems a bit incomplete and vague to me

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

Pit Fiend just let it go. You don't like the rules fine, but please stop being so immature and antagonistic. Your question has been answered very clearly and by numerous people. You're just making yourself look foolish now.

 

[melkoriii]

Caliban,

Since you seem to know what your talking about...
1. where-o-where is it written that all-around vision by itself is NOT proof against flanking? Do tell...
2. i don't seem to read much "flavor text" in Ubiquitous Vision, seems like straight forward game rulings to me, have you read it?
3. if you want a game with extra attacks every BAB, then go ahead and do it, that falls into game mechanics and there are no rights or wrongs, its a concept. but blindsight (and AAV) is a tangible REAL WORLD ability, ever watch animal planet?
4. maybe, blindsight as written needs to be cleared up, seems a bit incomplete and vague to me

Wow I have not seen this caliber of blinders ever and this board has tons of ppl with blinders on.

Pit Fiend you are ether Tolling for fun or just flat out a stubborn moron.

As stated many many many times in the past. If something does not state you can, Then you can't. Blindsight says not were that you are unflankable. There for you can be flanked

 

[Caliban]

Caliban,

Since you seem to know what your talking about...
1. where-o-where is it written that all-around vision by itself is NOT proof against flanking? Do tell...

Show where it states that AAV by itself is proof against flanking. In 3e, everyone effectively has 360 degree vision because there is no facing rules. You can't sneak up "behind" anyone in combat.

2. i don't seem to read much "flavor text" in Ubiquitous Vision, seems like straight forward game rulings to me, have you read it?

Yes, it's a Psionic ability. It's not blindsight, and it's not a core rule.

3. if you want a game with extra attacks every BAB, then go ahead and do it, that falls into game mechanics and there are no rights or wrongs, its a concept. but blindsight (and AAV) is a tangible REAL WORLD ability, ever watch animal planet?

Yes, but flanking is a d20 game mechanic, which is what we are discussing. If you can show me an episode of animal planet that discusses how bats or scorpions can't be flanked, it might have a bearing on the issue.

4. maybe, blindsight as written needs to be cleared up, seems a bit incomplete and vague to me

Because it doesn't grant the ability you want it to?

Blindsight is supposed to do one thing: replace normal vision in situations where normal vision won't work (primarily when you are blinded, in darkness, or facing invisible opponents). It also provides protection agains gaze attacks.

The description is pretty clear.

 

[Li Shenron]

Caliban,

Since you seem to know what your talking about...
1. where-o-where is it written that all-around vision by itself is NOT proof against flanking? Do tell...
2. i don't seem to read much "flavor text" in Ubiquitous Vision, seems like straight forward game rulings to me, have you read it?
3. if you want a game with extra attacks every BAB, then go ahead and do it, that falls into game mechanics and there are no rights or wrongs, its a concept. but blindsight (and AAV) is a tangible REAL WORLD ability, ever watch animal planet?
4. maybe, blindsight as written needs to be cleared up, seems a bit incomplete and vague to me

1. I don't want to argue or sound hostile, but if we start talking about what the rules specifically DO NOT PROVE, we're hardly going to play this game. "Where the hell does it say that a Fighter can't cast spells? As long as it doesn't forbit it clearly, he can, and he even does not have any explicit limit on spells/day!"

3. Of course, the DM decides the rules for his game, but not for other DMs' games. If you want Blindsight to avoid being flanked, nothing prevent you to do so. Another matter is to think that's the universal rule.

4. My friend, there's plenty of things that still look vague here, we're all trying to help each other...

 

[kreynolds]

Caliban,

Since you seem to know what your talking about...
1. where-o-where is it written that all-around vision by itself is NOT proof against flanking? Do tell...
2. i don't seem to read much "flavor text" in Ubiquitous Vision, seems like straight forward game rulings to me, have you read it?
3. if you want a game with extra attacks every BAB, then go ahead and do it, that falls into game mechanics and there are no rights or wrongs, its a concept. but blindsight (and AAV) is a tangible REAL WORLD ability, ever watch animal planet?
4. maybe, blindsight as written needs to be cleared up, seems a bit incomplete and vague to me

Oh my god. Is there something in the air? What the heck is drawing so many people here that are absolutely intent on squeezing a dumptruck through a frickin' pinhole .00000000008 microns in diameter!?! Geez.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

And I take heat for having the daring to apply first order logic to the initiative system and get some messy conclusions...