Blindsight and Sneak Attacks?

[LuYangShih]

Blindsight makes Spot and Listen checks irrelevant. Read the spell description for Blindsight in MaoF, it says this exactly.

I don't care what it says in a non core rulebook.

Sonar or echo-location is a type of Blindsight used by some creatures (e.g. Desmodu). Are you suggesting that a person hiding in shadows in an otherwise empty room cannot be located by echo-location?

I'm suggesting a person with Hide would not simply Hide In Shadows all of the time to avoid being detected. You are assuming the same method of concealment each time. In a fantasy world like D&D, people with a high Hide skill would know of the other methods of detection available to enemies, and take steps to prevent detection in other ways.

I think a person with a high Hide skill could use that skill to, in an empty room, put themselves up against a wall or floor, and shift their body so that it was as close as possible, thus giving the indication that he was just another part of the wall. I'd say he still might be spotted, (after all, how hard is it to hide the regular way in an empty room with people looking for you), but that's an issue that should be resolved with opposing Hide and Spot rolls, as always.

Hiding is essentially a non-magical form of invisibility.

I disagree. Skills are much more than weaker forms of magic, and in fact are stronger in more ways than being able to operate in an anti-magic zone. Having high ranks in a skill indicates a great amount of skill, practice and knowledge in the area that skill represents, and such knowledge would include, IMO, how to avoid detection by other means than sight.

 

[LuYangShih]

Yes he can. Blindsight is exactly the same as seeing normally with your eyes with two exceptions:

1) You can't discern color
2) You can't read

Shouldn't you also have 3) And it autodetects everyone within range?

 

[hong]

I don't care what it says in a non core rulebook.

It's also in the MM2, FWIW. My bet is that it'll also make it into the 3.5E rules.

PS. You're treading on my schtick.

 

[hong]

Why would a Dragon even need those high skills in Spot or Listen if he autodetects anything that comes near him?

Blindsight won't work on incorporeal opponents, but Spot might.

 

[LuYangShih]

It's also in the MM2, FWIW. My bet is that it'll also make it into the 3.5E rules.

PS. You're treading on my schtick.

Well, if that's the case, that will be one of the few house rules I've ever had to implement. I really think it would suck if they did that, given the prevalence of abilities like Blindsight, Tremorsense, and Scent. Skills should be more than lesser versions of magic spells.

PS. Once, it was yours, but now, I am the Master.

 

[gfunk]

I really think it would suck if they did that, given the prevalence of abilities like Blindsight, Tremorsense, and Scent. Skills should be more than lesser versions of magic spells.

Tremorsense only works if you are on the ground. Scent takes an action just to find the direction of the invisible person. And you have to be within 5 ft to actually pinpoint his location.

Some forms of Blindsight (Ythrak, Desmodu) rely solely on Sonar so they can be countered by Silence spells.

A few creatures like Grimlocks and Dragons have a more general from of Blindsight that is always effective. While Dragon Blindsight is truly formidable due to its huge range, other creatures are much more limited (eg. Grimlock has 40 ft). Outside the range of 40 ft all attacks against a Grimlock are considered sneak attacks since it is effectively blind.

 

[Legildur]

Talking about more general Blindsight, the whole reason I was asking was because my halfling Rogue just got 2 levels in Dungeon Delver (Songs & Silence) and now has Blindfight 20ft (activated for 10 minutes as a standard action). The DD's Blindsight is not countered by silence.

 

[LuYangShih]

Tremorsense only works if you are on the ground. Scent takes an action just to find the direction of the invisible person. And you have to be within 5 ft to actually pinpoint his location.

Some forms of Blindsight (Ythrak, Desmodu) rely solely on Sonar so they can be countered by Silence spells.

A few creatures like Grimlocks and Dragons have a more general from of Blindsight that is always effective. While Dragon Blindsight is truly formidable due to its huge range, other creatures are much more limited (eg. Grimlock has 40 ft). Outside the range of 40 ft all attacks against a Grimlock are considered sneak attacks since it is effectively blind.

Yeah, except for the fact you cannot make a Sneak Attack outside of 30 ft range. Personally, I rule the way I do not because of Sneak Attacks (which are easily foiled in most cases), but because it completely negates, in many cases, the classic scout character from doing his stuff, since no matter what they do, they are automatically detected.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Outside the range of 40 ft all attacks against a Grimlock are considered sneak attacks since it is effectively blind.

[humperdink] Unless I'm wrong...and I'm never wrong...you must be within 30' to sneak attack anyone, so the grimlock's blightsight is as effective as the dragon's at thwarting the rogue. [/humperdink]


Edit: D'oh, beat to the punch!

 

[hong]

[humperdink] Unless I'm wrong...and I'm never wrong...you must be within 30' to sneak attack anyone, so the grimlock's blightsight is as effective as the dragon's at thwarting the rogue. [/humperdink]

Bah. Once again, I take a D&D balance sacred cow and turn it into fillet steaks!

The shadow sniper prestige class, based on the one-shot kill schtick, gets to deal sneak attack damage out to a weapon's first three range increments. This time, I'm going to ACTIVELY pimp a work-in-progress on the D&D Rules forum, as opposed to politely waiting for comments over on House Rules. Nobody here ever seems to read House Rules, but that never stops balance fascists from piping up with critiques six months after they had their chance.