Blindsight plus darkness -- unsalvageably broken?

[Artoomis]

From the errata:

Page 188 column 1, Continual Flame: change Illusion [Figment] to Evocation [Light]

And, from the SRD (Darkness, 2nd level spell):

This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. Not even creatures who can normally see in the dark (such as with darkvision) can see in an area shrouded in magical darkness. Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) do not work, nor do light spells of lower level (flare, light, dancing lights). Darkness and the 2nd-level spell daylight cancel each other, leaving whatever light conditions normally prevail in the overlapping areas of the spells. Higher-level light spells (such as the 3rd-level cleric spell daylight) are not affected by darkness.

If the spell is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level.

and (Deeper Darkness, 3rd level spell)

This spell causes the object touched to shed absolute darkness in a 60-foot radius. Even creatures who can normally see in the dark cannot see through this magical darkness. If the spell is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed.

Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Deeper darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level, including daylight and light.

What all this means is that a Continual Flame (a 3rd level light spell) dispells a Darkness and counters a Deeper Darkness so that you can see (with darkvision, anyway, if underground with no other light) out to the radius of the Continual Flame.

This makes Continual Flame much more useful than I thought it was.

Finally, it's worth noting you can't cast these spells on a person, only objects, which would at least require a touch attack.

edit: If targeted on the person rather than an object the spell will simply be used up to no effect.

edit: I think it might be really funny to watch the party struggle to figure out which object has the spell on it as it might not be obvious which thing the dragon touched.

 

[Wippit Guud]

However, be aware that Darkness is a touch spell. The
dragon can't target the spell on a party member without closing to melee range.

Big dragon? Take the frat that makes touch spells at range

 

[maddman75]

Big dragon? Take the frat that makes touch spells at range

I'll just take flyby attack. Its not like dragons have a hard time hitting.

 

[HeavyG]

Big dragon? Take the frat that makes touch spells at range

I don't think you can metamagic spell-like abilities.

You could cast it on a rock, throw the rock at the party. In the initial confusion, swoop down under cover of the rock-based target spell and tag a PC with another darkness spell.

If it's a non-black dragon we're talking about and it's pretty old, it can cast the darkness (or deeper darkness) spell, heightened by a few levels so that it foils continual flame. Are there many (or any) light spells 4th level and up ?

 

[FireLance]

You could cast it on a rock, throw the rock at the party. In the initial confusion, swoop down under cover of the rock-based target spell and tag a PC with another darkness spell.

Wonder if it's possible to rig a sticky darkness bomb using tanglefoot bag technology. Touch attack + do you really want to try cutting it off yourself in the dark?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Pie,

I've read through the whole thread before making my comments, just in case someone had already said it.

Firstly, in my campaign I wouldn't allow the Blindsight spell (not least for the reasons you mention!). Since you have a policy of giving certain things a "trial run", it has a surprisingly effective side effect when combined with a lower level spell and the Player is amenable, I think you decision to remove it is the best one.

If you still wanted a nerfing solution (which you don't, I know) perhaps one that would work is to say that this Blindsight isn't high-resolution - and you can't "see" anything smaller than a dagger, for instance. It becomes difficult to tell individuals apart.

My preferable solution would be that it enables you to make "Spot" checks regardless of the visual situation - so you can make Spot checks in darkness, in obscurement, underwater, in magical darkness. Effectively it then becomes a more powerful version of Darkvision (which gives black and white vision in ordinary darkness, but which is foiled by magical darkness - enabling you to make spot checks in those circumstances). Automatically spotting is too big a benefit, but enabling spot checks to be made should be fine - and all targets in the darkness get to make their normal hide check (which is d20+dex-armour vs his spot) to avoid him being able to target them without the effect of concealment. Heck, in this case you could allow Blindsight a spot check to get past blur/displacement/mirror image (use appropriate spell save DC from the defensive spell caster)

Cheers
(hoping I've added something constructive)
Alex

 

[green slime]

The balck dragon has obviously cast long lasting "darkness" Extend/extend darkness or Deeper Darkness on stones/pebbles around his lair. On top of these stones he has placed barrels, or cups that he then levitates/removes with magical hand, when nosy adventurers are kind enough to bring new supplies of magical equipment...

Wow. That blindsighted cleric can see 30 feet... So at least he sees the stream of acid before it hits him...

I'm not too worried about this combo, sorry Daniel. But thanks for bringing to my attention the duration, which may be a slight problem.