Blindsight vs. Mirror Image (figment)

[Nail]

Not true. Blindsight-by-sound is echolocation or sonar - it relies on hearing, yes, but not on hearing the mirror image. Figments have no substance and thus echolocation and sonar do not detect them.

The "you cannot use hearing to distinguish between the images and the caster" bit is referring to the fact that the illusion includes auditory components, and thus makes all the same sounds the caster does. The sounds the images make are completely and totally irrelevant to blindsight.

When using "echolocation", are you using hearing to distinguish between images and the caster?

Are you claiming echolocators don't use hearing?

 

[Zurai]

Are you claiming echolocators don't use hearing?

Are you claiming figments have substance?

 

[Nail]

Are you claiming figments have substance?

How is that relevant? Does echolocation ignore figments and glammers? Do you have any RAW support for that?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not true. Blindsight-by-sound is echolocation or sonar - it relies on hearing, yes, but not on hearing the mirror image.

"Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation."

The ability distinguishes between blindsight-via-keen-hearing and blindsight-via-echolocation.

The grimlock, for example, has blindsight based on smell and hearing - not smell and echolocation. Now, since his blindsight is not based solely on hearing, and since he is, in addition, blind, he's not an example of a creature whose blindsight will be fooled by mirror image. But he is an example of a creature who uses hearing, not echolocation, and if there were a sighted creature whose blindsight relied solely on hearing, that sense could be fooled by Mirror Image if he could see the figments.

-Hyp.

 

[Zurai]

How is that relevant?

Because you aren't using hearing to distinguish between the images and the caster - that would mean that they make different sounds - you're using blindsight. The fact that some versions of blindsight are echolocation-based and thus based on sound is irrelevant to the discussion. Sound waves do not bounce off imaginary objects.

Does echolocation ignore figments and glammers?

Blindsight does, yes. Echolocation is a subtype of blindsight, so also yes.

Do you have any RAW support for that?

From the SRD:

Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature. Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Why does it negate displacement? Because the displacement is a mere image with no substance, and the caster's substance is masked by an image of nothingness. Blindsight (and the sub-type of blindsight, echolocation) ignores such things.

Mirror Image is just Displacement with multiple displacements.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The fact that some versions of blindsight are echolocation-based and thus based on sound is irrelevant to the discussion. Sound waves do not bounce off imaginary objects.

How is it irrelevant? Echolocation uses bouncing sound waves. Keen hearing means listening for the sounds the creature makes - heartbeat, breathing, footsteps - and those are the sounds the figments replicate, since hearing cannot be used to distinguish between the caster and the images.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

What's the logic behind echolocation having some special status?

If you shine a bright cone of light at the mage and his four images: all of them appear to reflect light, all of them cast a shadow.

If you emit a high pitched directional sound at the mage and his four images: all of them appear to reflect sound.

Doesn't that make sense? Else a bullseye lantern becomes your first line of defense.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Zurai]

What's the logic behind echolocation having some special status?

If you shine a bright cone of light at the mage and his four images: all of them appear to reflect light, all of them cast a shadow.

If you emit a high pitched directional sound at the mage and his four images: all of them appear to reflect sound.

Doesn't that make sense? Else a bullseye lantern becomes your first line of defense.

Cheers, -- N

Good point. Let me think on it.

 

[Nail]

The difficulty - as always - is that Real World processes don't necessarily apply to the RAW. Nor should they have to, IMHO.

Put more specificly to this case: Figments are NOT imaginary....they're just "unreal". They can mimic sound, and echolocation uses sound.

 

[Notmousse]

But Echolocation is not the same as Keen Hearing.

Not only is it a difference sense (as listed in the SRD), but Echolocation does not *have* to rely on hearing. For all we know there's a special echolocation chip (Nacho Cheese no less) in some monsters (remember, physics is a house rule).