Blink automatically allows sneak attacks, what?

[Trainz]

I don't think that's how it works... it's not an item which casts the spell on you, it's a continual item, so that the effect is "on" or "off". When I have a character with blink he usually just keeps it on all the time. Very nice against those surprise attacks. Sure, you move slower, but get something to counteract that and it's all good.

I beg to differ:

Activation: Usually, a ring's ability is activated by a command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or it works continually.[...]

Blinking: On command, this ring makes the wearer blink, as with the blink spell.

The ring costs 27,000 gp. As per the magic item creation rules on page 285, a continuous effect (which is NOT the same as an at will effect) costs 4 times as much.

A continuous ring of blinking would cost 108,000 gp.

 

[Sithobi1]

Actually, it should last at least 12 rounds, since Forge Ring requires you to be CL 12th, and 11 rounds of sneak attacking an enemy should bring down just about anything.

 

[Shin Okada]

No, it's more a rule on the nature of blinking than the nature of the ghost touch enhancement.

A ghost is something that can manifest and attack. That's exactly what the blink is doing, sending you away, manifesting you randomly. The whole interaction of ghostliness and etherealness etcetera is very ... poorly written. This ruling actually makes it better (IMO obviously) because it gives a nice counter to the blink ability.

Where have you got this idea?

First of all, the descriptive text of Blink spell does not include the word "manifest" or "manifestation". Thus, this is not a manifestation.

Second. "Manifestation" is a ghost's ability which allow it to partly enter the material plane. The ghost is still partly in the Ethereal plane. They do exist on the material plane and the ethereal plane simultaneousely. And they are incorporeal in the material plane. That is completely different ability from blinking. When blinking, you blink back and forth betwween the matereal plane and the ethereal plane. At one moment, you are on the matereal plane. At another moment, you are on the ethereal plane.

Third. Ghost touch weapon can be picked up and moved by a manifesting ghost because it is an incorporeal creature in material plane (they do exist on two planes simultaneousely). The description of the weapon ability never say that it can damage or picked up by something in the ethereal plane and not in the material plane.

So, a ghost touch weapon cannot harm someone while that one is (only) in the ethereal plane.

 

[Shin Okada]

Actually, it should last at least 12 rounds, since Forge Ring requires you to be CL 12th, and 11 rounds of sneak attacking an enemy should bring down just about anything.

No. CL of a ring can be lower than 12. Actually, typical CL of the Ring of Blinking is 7th as written in the DMG.

Edit: And it could be a typo for "5th" IMHO. This is a command word item which creates a spell effect. And Blink is the 3rd-level spell. 3 (spell level) x 5 (CL) x 1,800 = 27,000gp.

 

[rushlight]

Definitely not. Read the spell description, the miss chance is definitely not from concealment. And the "concealment" you get is from the partial invisibility. The "fuzzy" statement regarding the ethereal plane is flavor text. Sure, you can house rule that all you want, if you don't like the effect, I see no issue with houseruling it away. But the actual rule definitely give sneak with this.

I consider that an attempt to circumvent a clear rules pattern. It borders on dairy.

While Blink doesn't specifcially address sneak attacks, it makes it clear that half the time you're on the Ethereal plane. Seeing from the Ethereal into the Material isn't the same as regular sight - it's murky, foggy, indistinct, and swirling. Sneak attack states that you must have clear vision to select your spot. Spending half the round being barely able to see what's happening doesn't cut it. It's not a house rule - it's the sneak attack rules. Which people seem all too eager to ignore. "Blink doesn't state it prevents sneak attacking? Well, then it's legal!" Before you agree with that, you should check the sneak attack rules - they apply too. And they foil Blink.

Also keep in mind that Blink occurs randomly. You aren't able to plan your attack, since sometimes they miss too - so no planning when it's clear and the striking.

If there was a spell that surrounded you with shadowy illumination half the time, would you still say sneak attacks are legal? If so, you'd be wrong.

Again, Blink doesn't address sneak attack, and sneak attack doesn't address Blink. But common sense addresses both. Both rules must be applied. Any less and we'd be munchkining the rules.

 

[Caliban]

I consider that an attempt to circumvent a clear rules pattern. It borders on dairy.

While Blink doesn't specifcially address sneak attacks, it makes it clear that half the time you're on the Ethereal plane. Seeing from the Ethereal into the Material isn't the same as regular sight - it's murky, foggy, indistinct, and swirling. Sneak attack states that you must have clear vision to select your spot. Spending half the round being barely able to see what's happening doesn't cut it. It's not a house rule - it's the sneak attack rules. Which people seem all too eager to ignore. "Blink doesn't state it prevents sneak attacking? Well, then it's legal!" Before you agree with that, you should check the sneak attack rules - they apply too. And they foil Blink.

Also keep in mind that Blink occurs randomly. You aren't able to plan your attack, since sometimes they miss too - so no planning when it's clear and the striking.

If there was a spell that surrounded you with shadowy illumination half the time, would you still say sneak attacks are legal? If so, you'd be wrong.

Again, Blink doesn't address sneak attack, and sneak attack doesn't address Blink. But common sense addresses both. Both rules must be applied. Any less and we'd be munchkining the rules.

It's not "munchkining the rules", that's the way it works.

Sneak attack is very clear: concealment makes it impossible to sneak attack.

Blink is very clear: the miss chance you have when you attack (assuming you are the one blinking) is not from concealment, it's from you possibly going ethereal when the blow lands. It states that explicitly. The miss chance has nothing to do how the material plane looks from the ethereal plane.

Blink is very clear in that you strike as if invisible. That means if your opponents don't have uncanny dodge or some form of concealment or sneak attack immunity, you can sneak attack them on every attack that hits.

Blink is a complicated spell, and does have some rules errors in it (it refers to you being incorporeal when you are not), but this is not one of them.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sneak attack states that you must have clear vision to select your spot.

Incorrect.

Sneak attack states:

"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment"

A blinking Rogue against a non-blinking creature does not miss due to concealment since the creature does not have concealment.

The Blink spell is quite clear that the Rogue has a miss chance, not a concealment miss chance. And it states:

"Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike."

This is crystal clear. You do not miss because you sometimes do not see your opponent clearly from the ethereal plane, you sometimes miss because you blink out as you are about to strike.

Plus, sneak attack works due to:

"You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC."

"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC"


If you need a rationale as to how this works, the Rogue indistinctly sees his opponent from the Ethereal Plane and waits to strike. When he goes material again, he clearly sees his opponent and strikes as if Invisible (i.e. becoming visible from the ethereal plane is no different than becoming visible when your Invisibility goes away due to you attacking). He gets his sneak attack bonus because the opponent was denied his Dex bonus for being unable to see him until he struck.

But, there is a slim chance that he blinks back into the Ethereal plane before landing the blow and he misses if this happens.

 

[rushlight]

Sneak attack states:

"A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment"

Funny, you just ignored the part of the sneak attack rules that applied to what I'm saying. Try the whole text referring to when you can sneak attack:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Given that the Ethereal plane states:

The Material Plane itself is visible from the Ethereal Plane, but it appears muted and indistinct, its colors blurring into each other and its edges turning fuzzy.

If you consider "muted", "indistinct", "blurry colors" and "fuzzy edges" to be equal to seeing "well enough" for a sneak attack (when shadowy illumination is NOT) then we've got some serious differences in definitions. How in the world do you pick out a chink in the armor when you can't bloody well SEE where the armor begins or ends? Duh.

You can try to bend the rules as far as you like - but you're still not playing by the rules. Sure, the Blink rules don't mention sneak attacks. I'm sure they assumed you'd figure it out. Sometimes, when multiple different sets of rules interact, you need to read them all before reaching a conclusion - not just the one spell you're using.

If you need a rationale as to how this works, the Rogue indistinctly sees his opponent from the Ethereal Plane and waits to strike. When he goes material again, he clearly sees his opponent and strikes as if Invisible (i.e. becoming visible from the ethereal plane is no different than becoming visible when your Invisibility goes away due to you attacking). He gets his sneak attack bonus because the opponent was denied his Dex bonus for being unable to see him until he struck.

... unless he fails his 20% miss chance. But wait! He "waited to strike" until he was on the Material Plane! So, by your rationale, the rogue could forever avoid the 20% miss chance by declaring that he was "waiting to strike". The rogue can't "wait to strike". That's obvious. He takes his shot when he can - no matter what plane he happens to be on.

In the end, Blink doesn't specify, and it should. It should state quite clearly "Dear people who want eternal-sneak-attacking-rogues: 1) You can't see clearly from the Ethereal plane. 2) Half the time you're on the Ethereal plane. 3) That means half the time you can't see clearly. 4) Sneak attack requires you to see clearly. Since you aren't seeing clearly (see 1 through 3 above), you can't sneak attack. The End."

 

[Crothian]

one of the problems that people have with d20 is the descriptions really mean nothing in the game mechanics. So, even though the sneak attack says you need to see to do, it is the statement about the concealment that defines when in game mechanics that a sneak attack cannot happen. And in the etheral plane while it has neat visuals, they mean nothing in game mechanics becasue there is no neagive or penalty associated with them. d20 spells these things out.

 

[KarinsDad]

... unless he fails his 20% miss chance. But wait! He "waited to strike" until he was on the Material Plane! So, by your rationale, the rogue could forever avoid the 20% miss chance by declaring that he was "waiting to strike". The rogue can't "wait to strike". That's obvious. He takes his shot when he can - no matter what plane he happens to be on.

You just TOTALLY ignored what I wrote.

Let me try again.

Rogue waits until he is on Material Plane to strike. He does this every time.

WHY???

Because he knows when he is on the wispy Ethereal Plane he will NEVER hit.

Hence, by default, he ALWAYS attempts to strike while on the material plane. Every single time.

Hence, by detault, he ALWAYS clearly sees his target because he is on the material plane (assuming his target does not have normal concealment or something). Every single time.

Your "He cannot see clearly from the Ethereal Plane to Sneak Attack" argument is totally null and void. He NEVER attempts to attack from the Ethereal Plane. Ever.

Unfortunately, he is not always quick enough.

"Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike."

The Blink spell itself tells us the ONLY time he misses due to a miss chance is because he blinks out again.