Blog: Background and Themes a closer look.

[Dausuul]

It's an interesting idea, but as written I don't see anyone using themes or backgrounds. Most groups will choose the "individual skills and feats" option. A few will choose the "old school, don't use any of that garbage" option.

I mean, it sounds like themes and backgrounds don't do anything to reduce complexity--you still have to keep track of a bunch of skills and feats. You're just having your choices dictated for you. Players hate that. It doesn't help if there are massive rewards for choosing Feat X over Feat Y, which has been the case in every edition so far.

I would far rather have themes be tight, unified packages, more complex than any single feat but simpler than a whole list of them. Then there's actually a good reason to take a theme. Backgrounds likewise, if possible.

 

[FireLance]

My only concern is that it does sound like everybody ganged up on the rogue, shived him, and took his stuff.

If there's no one class that's skill-heavy, maybe there's a theme for that?

I suspect that even though backgrounds may be one source of skills, they may not be the only source of skills. It is possible that traditionally skill-heavy classes such as the rouge, ranger and bard may get skills as part of their class.

 

[DEFCON 1]

It's an interesting idea, but as written I don't see anyone using themes or backgrounds. Most groups will choose the "individual skills and feats" option. A few will choose the "old school, don't use any of that garbage" option.

I disagree. Given the proliferation of different types of themes/backgrounds (T/Bs)... I think most players who want a level of customization will find a "given" one that will serve their needs quite well. If I want to be a "pirate" and there is a "pirate" theme... I doubt I would completely ignore that theme and then try and recreate it using an all-new list of feats. (The assumption of course being that the feats one would have as a pirate are the ones that are used to create said theme.)

It's also a matter of fluff and ease-of-use. After all... My players and I could have just taken random extra skills for our 4E characters if we wanted to... but we usually took Backgrounds instead-- one, to gain the extra skills, and two, because the fluff helped flesh out our characters.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I love the idea that specialty mages grow out of character development: you start by studying as a wizard, and you . . . become a necromancy or illusionist, or whatever.

This might also very well be the manner of creating the 'specialty priest' as well.

If you are a cleric of the god of trickery... you could take the thief background and lurker theme... and then come 6th level take the Trickery Domain (or whatever it'd be called) as your advanced theme (like the wizard could take his school specialization with necromancer, illusionist, etc.)

This would solve SO many problems with trying to create all the various specialities for all the various gods. You get to remain a cleric, while at the same time getting skills and feats that are more applicable to your god and not just the 'generic cleric'. Good stuff!

 

[Frostmarrow]

I like it so much I'm going to try a joke:

26-35 Cheap Trollop. Cheap theme. Trollop background.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm a little...leery...of "advanced themes." I think at least they need a new name. Something like "Specialization" seems to make sense.

I like the idea that specialization is kind of built into the advancement. But specialization has a bit of a bang-on effect on the game that's not always good. Forex, if your fighter becomes an axe specialist, and then your DM gives out a magic polearm, you're a bit boned. Similarly, if you become a necromancer, and your DM makes necromancy taboo in the game, it might be hard for you to do.

Delaying this specialization to later levels helps abrogate some of these problems -- if you have five levels of basic abilities to fall back on, being without a magic axe is less of a big deal. If you spend a few months in the campaign, then you're prepared to be shunned if you become a necromancer.

So it's just a bit of a point of caution. The core of the idea -- that you're not locked into your theme from level 1 -- makes good sense.

 

[gideonpepys]

I think this blog entry is great for people like Jane (who like this kind of thing), but no so hot for people like Craig (who can't understand why designers at Wizards have to to invent names for imaginary players like Andy (who doesn't exist)).

Sorry - I don't like the sound of this at all.

I'm not keen on the 'one hour adventure' concept and now this seems to be translating into the '10 level campaign' I'm even less impressed. (Given that 'advanced themes' sound an awful lot like paragon paths.)

I want backgrounds and themes to provide unique abilities and bonuses that can't be obtained anywhere else - not just form a loose bracket of suggested feats/skills that are essentially interchangable.

"I'm a sage, but I decided against Linguist and went with Toughness..."

Nothing against players being able to choose feats and skills. Nothing against suggestions for newcomers. But taking cool elements like theme and background and making them into a list of mechanical elements removes another string from the creative player's bow.

To my mind, this iteration of D&D should spend less time worrying about Chris (who can't be bothered to learn the rules or wants to play a forty year old version of D&D which he already has on his shelf) and more time worrying about Laura (who is sufficiently interested in the game to buy a book or two).

In my experience the latter 'player type' is much more likely to invest in the game and be a customer. All of my Chris-type players rely on everyone else to tell them the rules. So why cater to them? Just give them a sheet with all the nuanced options removed, but leave them in for everyone else.

 

[DEFCON 1]

As an extra exciting thought...

I wonder if the fact that Rob says the 'advanced theme' comes at 6th level might be an indication of them actually adding into the game the 'Beginner's Tier' that many of us have suggested they do?

Many of us thought that levels 1-5 should really be an intro tier of play-- basic classes and such... to really help get new players to hit the ground running (and by extension, have a level 1-5 'beginner's box'.) Then at 6th level (the start of the 'heroic tier' perhaps?)... you get to take your advanced theme to really focus in on what your character is about.

This might very well have been a hint that they did not mean to give away, but which would be really good for the game I think, should it occur.

 

[gyor]

Necromancer, enchanter, and Aburist as themes is interesting, it suggests that it may be possible to play say a cleric necromancer, a bard enchanter, or a warlock Aburist.

The question also becomes how often do you get feats, once a level, once every other level, once at first level and second level then every,other level after that?

Also what happens at 12th level? Do you get another theme, what about levels 18 and 24? Is it just at first and sixth level you gain themes or is it at regular level intervolts, say,every six levels?

Oh and I still want fey beast tamer as a basic theme.

I'm going to cross post this with the blog comments sectian as well so wizards see it.

 

[WotC_Trevor]

It's an interesting idea, but as written I don't see anyone using themes or backgrounds. Most groups will choose the "individual skills and feats" option. A few will choose the "old school, don't use any of that garbage" option.

I'm not sure if most groups will. There are quick games, players who just want to play an archtype, new players and I'm sure all sorts of other games/players that might go the easy route or just picking a theme and background.

I mean, it sounds like themes and backgrounds don't do anything to reduce complexity--you still have to keep track of a bunch of skills and feats. You're just having your choices dictated for you. Players hate that. It doesn't help if there are massive rewards for choosing Feat X over Feat Y, which has been the case in every edition so far.

I don't think themes and backgrounds are meant to reduce play complexity - they're meant to reduce choices at character creation and at leveling for those people who would rather make less choices. Choice paralysis happens at those points too and this seems to address that for those kinds of players.

I wouldn't be surprised if feats run the gamut from simple and easy to apply and ignore, to the complex - again feeding in to what different players want from their game. I expect we'll see some different things in feats that we're used to as well - Rob throws werewolf in there as a theme, which implies that it could be linked to some kind of feat. I really like the idea of feats being a bit more than they have been in the recent past and I'd love to see more specifics on those different kind of feats.