Blog: Paladin vs. Cleric, fight!

[fuindordm]

Since this is still D&D, I think I would prefer the paladin to remain a LG paragon. This is a class for people who want to play a HERO. No, it doesn't fit in all parties, but neither does the barbarian, the thief, or a cleric of an evil god.

Part of what attracts me to the paladin is the class's mystery. Why are there only LG paladins? Where do they come from? Who chooses them, and why do they do what they do? Maybe no one in the game world knows the answers to these questions. Maybe paladins just appear where they are needed, a sign that Goodness hasn't given up the fight. Maybe paladins train each other, or there are only a hundred of them in the world at any given time and when one dies he or she passes on the gift to an apprentice.

I'm sure the evil gods would like their anti-paladins, but for some reason they can't have them. They're stuck with their clerics, and tear the head off anyone who reminds them that there's a paladin out there.

So what about champions of other gods, or classes like the Arcana Unearthed champion?

Well, the champion worked really well in Arcana Unearthed because it was a setting without active gods. If the gods are clear and present, as in D&D, then it makes sense for champions to be linked to a specific god (e.g. God of Knowledge) rather than an abstract ethos (preserving knowledge).

So why not have paladins of any god? Well, the gods already have their clerics. 2E had a specialty priest for every god--some were more magic-users, and others were more fighters--they could be considered variant paladins. If one of the cleric builds was a fighting class with more limited magical abilities, that could work well for characters wanting to play something paladin-like but not LG.

 

[Loonook]

Let us look at what the Paladin gains for himself:

Spellcasting
Divine Health
Lay on Hands
Turning
Auras
Detection
Smite
3rd Level spell
Grace
Mount

Personally, I want to see more Specialists when it comes to Clerics and Paladins. I miss the 2e vibe, and present the idea of Oaths and Mantles.

The traditional Paladin would bear the Divine Oath (Lawful Good) and the Hospitalier's Mantle... Divine Grace and Divine Health remain the same for every individual paladin. Oaths are pretty basic, and only affect the following:

Turning/Rebuking
Grace
Detection
Aura

Now let us see what we can do with Paladins with other Oaths. Aura of Courage/Intimidating Aura go to

Profane Oath: The Paladin has corrupted his faith, twisting his vows into his own self-serving ends. He gains the ability to Rebuke Undead and Turn Deathless creatures. His Grace ability provides a Profane Bonus. He has the ability to Detect Good. He gains the Intimidating Aura ability at level 4.

Aura of Courage: Remains the same as Aura of Courage, but boosts its ability by +2 for every 8 levels after 4, to +8 at 20th level.

Intimidating Aura - Adds Immunity to Fear and the power of the Frightful Presence feat, usable 1/day for every 8 levels after 4th, to a maximum of 3/day.

This is pretty basic, and honestly the power of the Frightful Presence ability is situational at best, as it only applies to creatures with less HD than the opponent. Great for mobs, poor for your standard big bad evil monsters.



Now we get to Mantles. Mantles provide the abilities that match up to:

Spellcasting
Lay on Hands
Smite
3rd Level spell
Mount

Now this is where it gets interesting . Just throwing out ideas with no actual playtesting... But would love to get the chance to try them out .

Mantle of the Land: The Paladin's beliefs are older than the Church, and he draws power from the Land and Sky rather than some divine entity.
Skill: Gains Survival as a skill.
Spellcasting: A mixture of Nature and protective spells.
Smite: Unnatural Creatures are smiteable by a bearer of the Mantle of the Land. Rather than Smite Evil the Mantlebearer may Smite Undead, Constructs, and Outsiders of any ilk.
3rd level spell: Remove Disease is still on the Druid spell list so we keep it there. Neutralize Poison also feels like a good thing to place in here.
Mount: Replace with any Animal Companion or maintain the Mount ability. The Paladin's Animal Companion advances as a Mount.
Lay on Hands: I'd like to put "The Paladin can impart Fast Healing X for rounds equal to Y." The balance here is tricky as it is slightly worse in the short term but can be valuable in the long run. For now, LoH remains the same.

Overall: The Paladin gains the ability to smite Good and Evil creatures... But in most cases this is actually just giving a slight amount of options to the Paladin in the case that Good creatures are used as opponents of the three available types. The Mount is only slightly better than an Ranger's companion at 20th level HD wise, but does not gain some of the nice AC abilities that a Ranger gains.

Mantle of the Mystic: The Paladin believes in the power of the Art. He is studious and knows ways to combat those who twist the Art to perverse ends.
Skill: Spellcraft. I kind of want to give Use Magic Device to the Mystic Mantle, as it ties to a Paladin's main stat, but may be a bit of a bridge as it is such a GOOD skill.
Spellcasting: Abjuration and Enchantment effects from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The Paladin loses healing completely.
Smite: Creatures with Supernatural Abilities/Spellcasting.
Mount/Lay on Hands: The Paladin replaces his Mount ability with a Dispelling Attack. The Paladin may place a Touch attack on an opponent channeling a Dispelling Prayer (DC: HD + Cha). This ability may be used Cha mod/day. The two-way nature of LoH could also make this a Spell Resistance effect gained by the Paladin as a standard action for X rounds. 26 SR and 26 CL DC doesn't seem too untoward at 20th level, and is going to be beaten by most, if not all, of the casters.
3rd level Spell: Remove disease removed, replaced with Magic Circle against X of appropriate opposing alignment.

Overall: You combine 2 moderate skills for a cracker of an ability. Most higher-level creatures are going to have Su or Spellcasting abilities, but again there will be creatures who ARE evil that you're not affecting. The powers are extremely level dependent and swingy, but so are most. Magic Circle Against X is a fantastic ability... Honestly Remove Disease is just not the best.

I also enjoy the Paladin's Mercies and multiple auras in Pathfinder... And believe that Mercies could be made available to each specific Mantle along with an additional Aura for each to prevent Paralysis, Charm, Death Effects, etc.

What do you think then? I think there needs to be a bit more work put into it but I gave it about 15 minutes of what I would LIKE to see. I think that these basic Mantles could easily be changed, Spellcasting replaced with various abilities for a Dragon mantle, for instance, or the Fey allowing castings of Disguise Self and other popular Fey abilities as part of the Mantle of the Summer/Winter Courts.

Each church could easily create their own Mantle, as it is just a matter of breaking down the power levels and working from there for balance. I think that these powers also help to pull the Paladin up to a more formidable foe, as I would like the Fighter to be pulled up.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Evenglare]

I know it's not D&D , but I really with the cleric would follow more of a priest /robe type , rather than being decked out in armor and able to cast spells. Just my 2 cents.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I’ve taken Mearls' Cleric list and worked on what I think would be an inclusive version of the Paladin.

Core
1. The Paladin is a well armed and armoured warrior
2. The Paladin is sworn to a divine calling
3. While they embody their calling, the Paladin receives divine blessings
4. Divine blessings reflect the divine calling

Default Divine Blessing – A Paladin sworn to chivalry, AKA ‘Paladin-Cavalier’:
• Must be LG only
• <Insert list of chivalric do’s and don’ts>
• Gains limited access to healing & protective divine spellcasting
• Smites evil
• Can call a special mount or alternative

Alternate Divine Blessing 1 – A Paladin sworn to vengeance, AKA ‘Paladin-Blackguard’:
• …

Compare this to the Mearls’ Cleric below and there’s actually precious little overlap. The warrior lines are at different ends of the spectrum and so is mention of healing and divine spellcasting.

1. The Cleric Is a Healer
2. The Cleric Is a Divine Spellcaster
3. Divine Magic Is Subtle and Indirect
4. The Cleric Is an Armored Warrior
5. Clerics Reflect the Gods

It's a draft, it's contentious (and possible a little boring), but I think this is the kind of exercise necessary to tease out what the Paladin is and where it stands compared to the Cleric.

 

[GM Dave]

I like the attempt at a list but I would suggest this list;

1. The Paladin is a Blessed Warrior or a Warrior of Faith

Through out the history of DnD, the Paladin has firmly been in the Fighter/Warrior/Defender group. He is first a warrior and secondly marked by his religious conviction or blessing.

2. The Paladin is Knightly in his equipment and training.

The Paladin is known for using Heavy Armour, focusing on charging into battle, and using mounts.

3. The Paladin is Knightly in his convictions.

The Paladin is known for his Oaths or adherence to alignment. The failure to follow these convictions results in penalties including the loss of status as a Holy Warrior. The Paladin must battle his desires or virtues to maintain his status. A Fallen Paladin must follow a path of redemption to reclaim his status.

4. The Paladin is rewarded for his convictions.

The Paladin receives many blessings from being a holy warrior. These blessings include superior equipment (holy swords, divine mounts), improved health (protection from disease, healing self/others), protection from un-natural harm (improved defense against evil/good, better saves).

I have not included the Smite Evil ability in this list because while I like it, it is not universal (only really in 3e) to the editions (not in 1st or 2ed and 4e has Challenge).

5. The Paladin is recognized for his convictions.

The Paladin stands out and has an aura that marks him as a holy warrior that friend and foe recognize. A good Paladin stands out as a beacon that all can point to and evil finds a good Paladin should they try to hide (not something that most Paladins, except Paladins of a God of Thief or Trickery, would attempt to do anyways). A Paladin provides moral boost to the masses and people choose to follow a Paladin on crusade before all others.

If I was making a list for Paladins, this is the list that I would make.

 

[occam]

I see adventurers as people who are out to plunger the world for it's lost or forgotten treasures.

Recruiting poster in a local tavern:

"The world is backed up! I need adventurers to help me plunge it!"

 

[occam]

Personally, Wizards is already copying Paizo to get a good idea of where the Rogue should go, they oughta keep up the good copyright infringement and look at how Paizo did up the Paladin.

Auras? Great feature. Static effect that can harm enemies or aid allies, few to no other classes have this feature.
Lay on Hands? Traditional. Paladin's have always had a few backup healing features as divine characters. They're no cleric, but they'll be able to lend a Hand in a pinch.
Smite? Great feature, though some other classes have this, I don't think it would be difficult to tailor it to the Paladin without giving it awful stupid restrictions like only allowing it to affect Chaotic Evil.
Mounted Combat? Cool feature, maybe the Paladin is better at it, but really it's not going to see use in most games. The battlefield simply isn't suited to it.
Defender? A good option, Paladin's should be great defendes, right up there with Fighters. But they should also be holy avengers, heavy-armored "smite your face in the name of my god!" type guys. It's the same duality of the Fighter. I don't know if there's room for a two-weapon Paladin, but there definately needs to be room for a two-handed juggernaut.

What did Paizo do with rogues that Wizards is now copying? Other than expanding the list of rogue talents and moving them to lower levels (and upping the hit die), they seem pretty much the same as 3e rogues.

And I believe all the paladin features you mention were present in 3e and/or 4e D&D. Paizo added mercies and divine bond.

 

[Sunseeker]

What did Paizo do with rogues that Wizards is now copying? Other than expanding the list of rogue talents and moving them to lower levels (and upping the hit die), they seem pretty much the same as 3e rogues.

And I believe all the paladin features you mention were present in 3e and/or 4e D&D. Paizo added mercies and divine bond.

Basically make the class go all the way to 20, add in minor details, fixes, it certainly isn't a total overhaul, but it's a pretty fair revision.

 

[occam]

Basically make the class go all the way to 20, add in minor details, fixes, it certainly isn't a total overhaul, but it's a pretty fair revision.

And which of those things that Paizo did with the rogue is Wizards now copying? I'm afraid I don't see it.

 

[triqui]

Huh?

There are plenty of orders in Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms. There are even rules specifying how these orders are different from each other.

Greyhawk has orders going back to OD&D.

Dragonlance has orders going back 1st ed DnD.

If you look at back issues of Dragon magazine there was usually one issue a year that covered 'Paladin Orders' (or equivalents) for various settings in the game.

But not in the basic Core rulebook.
When 4e was being playtested, WotC used a name for one of the wizards types of implement users was named and people roared about it.