Bloodbloater Ooze CR1?

[Infiniti2000]

What if the party does not have a caster with a damaging area effect spell? It should not be assumed that every (or even a typical) party, especially one of level 1 characters, has that sort of spell.

So? A challenge overcome does not require that you kill everything you come across. So what if they can't kill this? As long as they can get to land they can easily escape it and continue on with their adventure, wiser about the world. Should they get, say, CR 3 worth of XP for bypassing a threat that moves at 5ft per round on land?

That's why you adjust the EL upward.

Actually, that's not what you do. You don't adjust the EL unless you modify the involved challenge ratings. Instead, award ad hoc experience points. If you truly think this thing is CR 3 or whatever, then use that value, regardless of circumstance. I think you ran the encounter correctly and the players handled it correctly and they deserve CR1 worth of XP plus, say, 10-15%.

 

[Arkhandus]

Actually I think the CRs are based on a typical party that includes a caster with that type of spell.
It's up to the DM to adjust the CR based on how s/he sets up the encounter.

Should be true for CRs of 5 or higher, since then you have the typical area attack spells. But the only 1st-level area-effect spell for offense is Burning Hands, which isn't all that common. Color Spray wouldn't work against mindless targets, and wouldn't defeat them itself. 2nd-level spells at least have Sound Burst and Flaming Sphere which might do the trick, but they're also uncommon, so you can't expect a typical party will have them available.

I'm guessing the stupid swarm's CR was rated too low by some error or a brain fart on the part of the author (forgetting that, at least, most parties of 1st level won't be able to defeat it; you would need a very awesome-rolling sorcerer, with Burning Hands and high Charisma, to stand any chance whatsoever of maybe, just maybe, doing enough damage over the course of several rounds, to defeat the swarm). :\

 

[frankthedm]

[IMaGel]http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50178.jpg[/IMaGel]
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Originally posted by Arkhandus
I'm guessing the stupid swarm's CR was rated too low by some error or a brain fart on the part of the author (forgetting that, at least, most parties of 1st level won't be able to defeat it; you would need a very awesome-rolling sorcerer, with Burning Hands and high Charisma, to stand any chance whatsoever of maybe, just maybe, doing enough damage over the course of several rounds, to defeat the swarm). :\
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Oil and torches when out of the water work just fine at first level. One person uses a real alchemist fire, the rest use cheaper lantern oil taking advantage of the preexisting fire.

Given the Ooze's weapon immunity, low but automatic damage and the logistic of dealing area affect damage underwater, in the water these suckers seem a CR2 or maybe a CR3. Out of the water, CR 1 is not out of line { unless the characters are trapped in it]. Fire vulnerability and swarm's vulnerability to area effects ensure that after a few levels, these things are going to fry like the eggs the artist made them look like.

 

[Arkhandus]

Yes, obviously the woman in the picture is freaking out, and trying to zap them with a wand of Magic Missile or something, as that doesn't look to be a Burning Hands. She's about to die. :\

 

[frankthedm]

Yes, obviously the woman in the picture is freaking out, and trying to zap them with a wand of Magic Missile or something, as that doesn't look to be a Burning Hands. She's about to die. :\

I assumed she was holding a sunrod, rather than a wand.

 

[Arkhandus]

OK, checking my Fiend Folio and the SRD.....

I can't seem to find the quote I thought someone mentioned before that torches could harm swarms. Odd.

3.5 apparently changed swarms to take +50% damage from area attacks, whereas the Fiend Folio just gave them -10 on Reflex saves against area attacks (and double damage from those that didn't allow a save). I guess it's simpler, though.

Bloodbloaters have fire vulnerability, so altogether they'd take 2 points of fire damage from the splash of an Alchemist's Fire flask. Out of their 22 hit points, that's not much, so it'd take 11 flasks to kill one bloodbloater swarm. Alchemist's fire costs 20 gold pieces. Most 1st-level adventurers do not have much GP to spend on alchemist's fire, and will be lucky if they're carrying even just 1 or 2 flasks each.


A 1st-level sorcerer may, if he felt inclined to spend one of his two 1st-level spells known on Burning Hands instead of the much more useful Color Spray or Sleep, and who doesn't mind not casting any defensive spells for the day, be able to cast 4 Burning Hands in one day, dealing an average of 4 damage with each to the bloodbloater swarm, considering its vulnerabilities. So he could do 16 damage to it by himself (would range between 8 and 32 damage depending on how poorly or awesomely he rolled). If he rolled insanely well, he could kill it with 3 or 4 Burning Hands. But most likely that bloodbloater swarm will be alive and kickin' after he's blown his wad for the day. Then it's up to hoping that he or another party member has several flasks of alchemist's fire on-hand.


The average guy has around 100 gp or so to start with, and after armor and weapons (or spell component stuff, and/or a familiar) and basic supplies/gear, most of the PCs won't have any alchemist's fire except maybe, possibly, 1 flask. The party's mage may have 2 or 3 flasks, perhaps. And this is assuming they expected to really need alchemist's fire on-hand, despite the hefty investment for a typical 1st-level PC. Not going to have enough to kill the bloodbloater swarm, usually. Still, it's remotely possible.

Someone may've rolled high on their starting wealth and decided it would be prudent to buy half a dozen or so flasks of alchemist's fire (120 gp for 6, 200 gp for 10...); and other party members may've decided to buy a flask or two just in case, so there just might be enough, if by some fluke every PC chose to invest in it at character creation (rather than spending most of their starting wealth on armaments and basic supplies).

Of course, fewer flasks (but still a few, usually) are needed if the party does happen, by chance, to include a sorcerer with 12+ Charisma, the Burning Hands spell, and none of his/her spell slots used up beforehand.


My point being that, really, the bloodbloater swarm has absolutely no place being pegged at CR 1 in the Fiend Folio, and yet it is. It's more like a CR 3. 1st-level PCs can't be expected to be perfectly ready to handle one of these, and yet they'd have to be so prepared or else they'd stand no chance of defeating it.

 

[Arkhandus]

Also, 2 minor points to mention:

1) As water-dwelling creatures, their Challenge Rating is going to be based on the assumption that they're encountered in watery environments, not found on dry land for some odd reason where they're immobile and helpless. I'm sure sharks aren't CR'd according to some assumption that they'll be encountered on land, for instance; and sharks tend to die when they're not swimming to push oxygen-laden water through their gills to breathe.

2) Swarms are immune to targeted effects, and only take splash damage from weapons like alchemist's fire or acid. Thus why there's no big 1d6x2 fire damage against them with alchemist's fire. AFAIK, from my readings.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Actually, that's not what you do.

No? I was pretty sure I did just that!

 

[PJSlavner]

So? A challenge overcome does not require that you kill everything you come across. So what if they can't kill this? As long as they can get to land they can easily escape it and continue on with their adventure, wiser about the world. Should they get, say, CR 3 worth of XP for bypassing a threat that moves at 5ft per round on land?

I did not mean to imply that they need to kill it. It was not clear if it was necessary for the party to swim through the water, or if there was an alternate route to the party's objective. If the party was required to swim, the ooze's slow speed on land is irrelevant. It would matter in that case if the party had an area affect.

 

[VirgilCaine]

What if the party does not have a caster with a damaging area effect spell? It should not be assumed that every (or even a typical) party, especially one of level 1 characters, has that sort of spell.

I would never take Burning Hands. Ever. 1d4 damage at 1st level vs. Sleep/Color Spray/Grease. Easy choice every time. Even at 3rd level, you'll see Web, Glitterdust, or Hypnotic Pattern as my area spell over something like Snowball Swarm.

Oh, and you can use oil flasks just like alchemist's fire, but there's only a 50/50 chance of it working correctly. Oil is something like 1000% cheaper than alchemist fire at 1 sp per pint. But personally, I go for dwarves or half-orcs, so I don't need to mess around with light sources.