Bloodied vs. Dying

[Markn]

Trevelyan - Well put.

Regicide - I'm trying to be civil. The only way I can do that is to ignore you and your belligerent tone.

I've said all I can say in this thread. I'm out.

Good debate all around folks!

 

[Nail]

To be bloodied, you must have triggered the Bloodied Value state, to be dying you must have triggered the dying state. The states happen one after the other.

Your paraphrasing is inaccurate, which is leading you to an erroneous conclusion. (FWIW, I understand why you might think this is the way it works, especially if you've played other gaming systems.)

#1) A PC can be "dying" without first being between 0 and half her hp value. Dying is NOT described as: "When you are bloodied, and have *then* had your hps reduced to zero or lower." The RAW doesn't say that. Ever.

The RAW says: "You are dying if your hps are zero or less."

#2) Being bloodied and dying are not "states", and there's no "triggering". These are words you've inserted to bloster your erroneous interpretation. You can't insert a new word to prove your point.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Now we have some problems:

tere are situations, where dying and bloodied should not be mutually exclusive (purple worm)
but there are also situations where they should be (knocking a minion to 0 hp rendering unconscious makes him bloodied... i don´t know, but i am sure there are powers which can expolit having a bloodied foe next to you)

Maybe having a condition track healthy - bloodied - dying - dead and using this consistent would be the best way to handle it... now its the DM´s task to handle this in a good way.

Consecrated ground is a power where the author maybe missed the clerics healers lore... 1+charisma doesn´t seem that broken if you look at it... and if a warlord had this power it would be much less powerfull...

also the rule possibility to have an unkillable cleric seems wrong... maybe a simple sustained powers end if you can´t take opportunity actions will put it back into line... also changing the power to:

a crature who starts its turn gains regeneration 1+cha mod until the end of his turn would make this power quite balanced...

 

[subrosas]

While I'm no fan of Regicide's, I'll note that 'exception based design' is one of the most misused phrases in debates about the rules. People consistently fail to understand what it actually means.

I've seen you say this other places. Care to enlighten us on what your interpretation of 'exception based design' is?

 

[keterys]

Exception-based design means you set up a system of overarching (preferably simple) rules, then everything else may explicitly make an exception to that rule.

For example, Ranged attacks provoke opportunity attacks (system rule), but Beholder Eye Rays 'does not provoke opportunity attacks' (exception).

And that's it. It's a very simple concept, it's best exampled by Magic the Gathering. I'd probably guess, however, that in twenty or so times seeing it used in debate in the forums it might have been correctly used... once?

 

[keterys]

It may perhaps also be worth note that D&D has been exception-based for a long time and it's not actually new for 4e, even if they're more proactively and publicly embracing it.

For example, weapon specialization gave you extra attacks in 2nd edition and feats, enhancements, and weapons changed the 'you crit on a 20' rule in 3rd edition.

 

[SkullThrone]

I noticed under the Level 22 Cleric power Revive the Target is:

Target: One bloodied or dying ally or a dead ally who died during this encounter

It seems odd to me that if Dying implies bloodied then why would it be called out specifically here. If you are Bloodied while you are Dying then this would be redundant. So it seems that this implies they are exclusive...so when you become Dying you cease to be Bloodied.

The same verbage appear in the Darksun Power Wings of Gold under the Effect:

...Any bloodied or dying ally that starts his or her turn within the zone regains 10 hit points.

It seems that is Consecrated Ground was meant to work on Dying allies it would be in the effect of the power as such.

 

[chitzk0i]

I noticed under the Level 22 Cleric power Revive the Target is:

Target: One bloodied or dying ally or a dead ally who died during this encounter

It seems odd to me that if Dying implies bloodied then why would it be called out specifically here. If you are Bloodied while you are Dying then this would be redundant. So it seems that this implies they are exclusive...so when you become Dying you cease to be Bloodied.

The same verbage appear in the Darksun Power Wings of Gold under the Effect:

...Any bloodied or dying ally that starts his or her turn within the zone regains 10 hit points.

It seems that is Consecrated Ground was meant to work on Dying allies it would be in the effect of the power as such.

First off, excellent 8 month necro. The rules for bloodied state that if you are below half hit points, you are bloodied. The dying rules never contradict that. A few unrelated powers don't change it.

Is Darksun the next campaign setting WotC is putting out? Cause they just published one called Dark Sun. Might be too much of the same thing.