Blowing up magic items, yes or no?

Well, I don't think anyone's really advocating that characters shouldn't experience any losses or disappointments. I've lost a few characters that I've played, and I didn't throw tantrums. IIRC, Tsyr also posted a pretty impressive episode in his campaign where one of his PCs stuffed up majorly when summoning a demon, and levelled an entire stronghold in search of vengeance. However, I think that there are more meaningful ways to accomplish this than just attacking items.

True, and as you'll remember, I only suggested the tactic be used occasionally, on a very selective basis.

But to me, not using such a useful tactic at ALL is like never using grapple, bull rush, disarm or trip (those are commonplace in all the games I play or DM). You're choosing not to take advantage of all the options.

And again I have to disagree with you; the Dragon destroying the dragonbane sword is ensuring its survival. What should it do? Destroy the party but keep the sword in its hoard? ;)
 

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Again it comes down to realism vs. fun.

You would have the dragon or wizard or whoever, act as it would logically in regard to the PC's and let the dice fall where they may.

Thats fine, and I also play my villains the same way. But, I also add one more variable to that mix: fun. If the logical action of the villain will not result in the players having fun then the villain will not take that course of action.

After all, realistically, as soon as a 1000 year old lich realizes the players are thwarting his plans, he will simply scry them out, bide his time and kill them all in their sleep. No saves, no hope. Dead.

That would be the logical thing to do for such a villain to do. But its not very good for your players enjoyment of the game. Thus you have just chosen enjoyment over realism.

To me, the sword being destroyed is the same way. Just because a villain can and would do something, doesn't mean thats what they should do. Making a kickass story and adding to your players enjoyment of the game is more important (and for me, fun) than letting random chance decide everything.
 

Hakkenshi said:

But to me, not using such a useful tactic at ALL is like never using grapple, bull rush, disarm or trip (those are commonplace in all the games I play or DM). You're choosing not to take advantage of all the options.

Yep. Mind you, I expect the players to do the same: not turning every bad guy they meet into a fish with polymorph other, for instance. D&D presents lots of tactical options. Some of these options, if exploited to the hilt, would kill the game as an enjoyable pursuit.

And again I have to disagree with you; the Dragon destroying the dragonbane sword is ensuring its survival. What should it do? Destroy the party but keep the sword in its hoard? ;)

Why not? What better trophy for the mantelpiece (metaphorically speaking) than the very item that its enemies hoped would bring about its downfall? What better way to appeal to a dragon's twisted sense of humour could there be?
 

I hope you'll understand if I disagree that destroying the dragonbane sword is as disastrous as your lich example (unless the DM's sent the party against a monstrously higher-level Dragon).

I do agree that the line should be drawn somewhere, and the Dragon thing is only an example. But in larger-than-life story battles, I think a Sundered weapon on either side can add tremendous drama to the story.

For example, in one of the climactic battles of a campaign I ran, the high-level psychic warrior who was facing off with the party using his deadly psionic scythe had it disarmed by a PC Lasher. The psychic warrior went down HARD after that. Fantastic, I said! The player had used his character well, and succeeded in a difficult attempt, but saved the party from much hurt in doing so.

Against NPCs, particularly one-shot NPCs, Disarming them is the same as a Sunder against the party, since the NPC is going to predictably bite it. I think that makes it even.
 

I worry that this thread is turning into a battle of straw men.

In this corner, a whiny player who, if magical items were naturally buoyant, would bob to the top of a waterfall, but who throws his dice if his wand runs out of charges and would just DIE if anyone took his sword!

In THIS corner, a sadistic DM who gives a player a ring of fireballs and then throws nothing but fire elementals and red dragons against them until finally the DM gets bored and has a first-level commoner Sunder the ring after spending his life savings to get True Strike and Magic Weapon cast upon him and his shovel.

I think most of us are somewhere in the middle. I don't go out of my way to attack players' items. If I want to be a jerk, generally I go after the PC's families. Besides, few of my monsters have the firepower necessary to take down the PCs' favorite weapons.

But if a monster HAS Sunder, it is foolish not to use it.

Someone said that it was not fair for someone to get a dragonslaying blade and have it sundered. That they didn't get to use it. Well, um, pardon me for being dense, but when does stuff get sundered? In combat. So you DID get to use it. You just didn't get to WIN with it. You got to hit the dragon for a bunch of damage that first time, and the dragon went, "Dude, that's a nasty sword," and Sundered it. You used the weapon, did some damage, and then the sword was destroyed -- and if it was an intelligent blade, dying in combat with a dragon is a good way to go.

I've had, as I recall, two monsters that destroyed items in my campaign. An Ogre with Sunder, and a Nightshade. They each destroyed one weapon apiece. The players were bummed, but they didn't deny that the monster was well within its tactical rights to do so -- the weapons that got sundered had just hit the monster for loads of damage, and were the biggest guns on the table at the moment. Sundering them was smart. In the Ogre's case, he had been hit for more than half his hit points in one strike. The Nightshade had been damaged by nothing but that one weapon up to that point. The players went, "Dang, they're fighting with intelligence," and dealt with it.

I said it earlier, and no one really answered it: Saying that your characters have a special divine right to hold onto their weapons because they are the protagonists of the story is really really suspicious when many people have just finished saying in other threads that they hate it when the DM tries to shoehorn them through a plot as if it were a written story.

Arthur gets to hold onto Excalibur (except for when it breaks) because it's a STORY, not a game. If you all want to be Arthur in a game with me, then be my guest. You will wield a the most powerful sword in the world and it won't get taken from you ever, and you will win every single fight. Also, your buddy will have an affair with your wife, and you will sleep with your half-sister while under the effects of an enchantment that you will NOT get a saving throw to avoid, and the bastard offspring of that union will leave you mortally wounded several years down the line. You will have no chance to avoid any of that. Because it's PLOT. It's STORY. They didn't roll dice, and Arthur didn't decide to go off into the Ogre Cave instead of dealing with the Hydra like the story wanted him to. So don't tell me that you want the freedom to do anything you want in the game and not get led around by some horrible DM-inflicted plot, but at the same time you want the plot-based protection on all your items and equipment.

All that said, it varies from game to game. In a low-magic world, a +1 sword should be destroyed only if you really want to break the spirit of the players. On the other hand, in a low-magic world, how did that +1 sword get destroyed in the first place? If you dropped it into lava, sure. But you can't sunder a +1 sword unless you have a +1 sword yourself. And in that low magic world, a fight between two guys with +1 swords is an epic battle.


-Tacky
 

Dragonblade said:
Again it comes down to realism vs. fun.

You would have the dragon or wizard or whoever, act as it would logically in regard to the PC's and let the dice fall where they may.

Thats fine, and I also play my villains the same way. But, I also add one more variable to that mix: fun. If the logical action of the villain will not result in the players having fun then the villain will not take that course of action.

After all, realistically, as soon as a 1000 year old lich realizes the players are thwarting his plans, he will simply scry them out, bide his time and kill them all in their sleep. No saves, no hope. Dead.

That would be the logical thing to do for such a villain to do. But its not very good for your players enjoyment of the game. Thus you have just chosen enjoyment over realism.

To me, the sword being destroyed is the same way. Just because a villain can and would do something, doesn't mean thats what they should do. Making a kickass story and adding to your players enjoyment of the game is more important (and for me, fun) than letting random chance decide everything.

Dragonblade, why does it have to be one or the other--realism OR fun? And how do you know that what you call "realism" (although I'll assume you mean verisimilitude) isn't "fun" for my players? You keep saying "your players"--all you're doing is trying to tell me how to run my game.

[As a side note, in my campaign the 1000-year old lich wouldn't just slay a bunch of meddlers. He'd try to manipulate them to think they were thwarting him, when in reality they'd be helping out. Plus, if he did come to kill them in the night (but if it's worth a lich's time to kill them, then it's not going to be as easy as you assume), they would have POSTED A WATCH.]

Let's agree to disagree on how we run our own campaigns. Do you think it's okay for players to throw a tantrum and hold up the whole game? According to the original post, the rest of the session was drowned out by the argument. The only contention that I will apply to other people's games is that it's simply not okay for players throw a fit when the dice go against them. Talking to the DM after the session about whether it was "fair" to zap the sword should work fine--how can anyone get upset about losing a character or an item in a game where raise dead and wish are, even if not commonplace, available?
 

takyris said:
I worry that this thread is turning into a battle of straw men.

In this corner, a whiny player who, if magical items were naturally buoyant, would bob to the top of a waterfall, but who throws his dice if his wand runs out of charges and would just DIE if anyone took his sword!

In THIS corner, a sadistic DM who gives a player a ring of fireballs and then throws nothing but fire elementals and red dragons against them until finally the DM gets bored and has a first-level commoner Sunder the ring after spending his life savings to get True Strike and Magic Weapon cast upon him and his shovel.

I hope I'm not the Sadistic DM in this equation. I'm a Rat Bastard, but not sadistic. ;)

takyris said:
I said it earlier, and no one really answered it: Saying that your characters have a special divine right to hold onto their weapons because they are the protagonists of the story is really really suspicious when many people have just finished saying in other threads that they hate it when the DM tries to shoehorn them through a plot as if it were a written story.
[/B]

I still agree.
 

The rules allow for many tactically savvy options that kill both realism and fun. There is more to the game than just following the rules. That is why DMing is an art.

I believe the DM had legitimate reasons for using Disintegrate on the sword.

I believe the player had legitimate reasons for thinking that was a cheesy tactic.

The conflict is one of game style. Having signature items is a particular game style, one that is not well supported by the core 3e rules. That doesn't make it automatically wrong.


As for Excalibur, if you go by the movie, it is never sundered. It breaks itself rather than kill a man with an ordained fate. The sword is intimately tied to the fate of both Arthur and the nation. Arthur isn't Arthur without his sword. That is a very important point in the movie.
 

New magic item property:

Self Sunder: Weapon detects if it is being used against the wishes of Fate (the DM) and, if so, destroys itself.
 

Well, Arthur isn't KING Arthur without the sword, but I see your point.

Still, I can only imagine Arthur's player telling the DM:
"Aw c'mon, the guy slept with my WIFE!!! Why can't I kill him?!"

or

"Best friend my ass, there's no WAY that +5 sword would break, dammit!!!"
 

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