[Bo9S] Crusader Maneuvers Question

[wolff96]

I'm trying to make sure that I correctly understand how the granted maneuvers of a Crusader work. More specifically, what happens when it is time for them to refresh?

The text reads:

If, at the end of your turn, you cannot be granted a maneuver because you have no withheld maeuvers remaining, you recover all expended maneuvers, and a new pair of readied maneuvers is granted to you. Randomly determine which of your maneuvers are granted and which are withheld. At the end of your next turn, a withheld maneuver is granted to you, and the whole process of divine inspiration begins again.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly...

A 1st-level crusader has his five readied maneuvers. He starts combat, gains maneuvers, uses a couple of them... Eventually, all of his maneuvers have been granted/expended. At this point, I'm not 100% sure.

A) Crusader retains his (for example) three unused maneuvers and the rest recycle and begin to be granted again.

B) ALL of the Crusader's maneuvers go to the non-granted state, recover, and two of them at random are granted to him.

I'm leaning towards "B", from the written text, but can someone confirm that for me?

 

[brehobit]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly...

A 1st-level crusader has his five readied maneuvers. He starts combat, gains maneuvers, uses a couple of them... Eventually, all of his maneuvers have been granted/expended. At this point, I'm not 100% sure.

A) Crusader retains his (for example) three unused maneuvers and the rest recycle and begin to be granted again.

B) ALL of the Crusader's maneuvers go to the non-granted state, recover, and two of them at random are granted to him.

I'm leaning towards "B", from the written text, but can someone confirm that for me?

I believe there was an official clarification indicating that "B" is the answer. In any case "B" is what everyone seems to use (including my group).

Mark

 

[Perun]

I'm trying to make sure that I correctly understand how the granted maneuvers of a Crusader work. More specifically, what happens when it is time for them to refresh?

The text reads:


I just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly...

A 1st-level crusader has his five readied maneuvers. He starts combat, gains maneuvers, uses a couple of them... Eventually, all of his maneuvers have been granted/expended. At this point, I'm not 100% sure.

A) Crusader retains his (for example) three unused maneuvers and the rest recycle and begin to be granted again.

B) ALL of the Crusader's maneuvers go to the non-granted state, recover, and two of them at random are granted to him.

I'm leaning towards "B", from the written text, but can someone confirm that for me?

Sage answered it recently in the Ask Wizards web feature (Link). It's B), by the way.

I had a discussion about this with a friend of mine, and I believe it would be a bit too much to allow option A) to work (even though that's what the RAW implies), because if a crusader would decide to wait for two or three rounds (depending on whether he has the Extra Granted Manoeuvre feat or not), he would have all of his prepared manoeuvres granted, and could spend two (or three, again depending on the feat) manoeuvres each round and get them back at the end of his turn, ready to use them again the very next round.

The said friend (Hi, Althalus! ) believes this is balanced by having to wait two (three) rounds, which is kind of big at higher levels, but it's not like the crusader would have to stand and do nothing the entire time -- with good BAB, d10 HD, and various other special abilities, he can still do something (like, fight, for example ).

Regards.

 

[ohGr]

Yeah, the Sage chimed in on this one a while back.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070406a

Q: Dear Sage,
When a crusader's maneuver recovery mechanic (Tome of Battle, p.9) activates, what happens to any maneuvers he still had ready and granted?
--Dan

A: If at the end of the crusader’s turn he cannot be granted a maneuver because he has no withheld maneuvers remaining, the process starts over from scratch. All maneuvers (whether expended or not) once again become withheld, and two of those maneuvers are randomly granted.

 

[hong]

Use them or lose them, huh?

 

[Vysirez]

Basically, If you are going pure crusader and you take the extra granted feat your maneuvers will recycle every 3 rounds. Which isnt too bad, but I would definitely want to have a mix of strikes, boosts and counters, cause if you stick to strikes you can't use them fast enough.

On a side note, one thing I'm not sure about is how crusader's recovery system works with PRCS. For example if you go into Ruby knight vindicator, at a couple of levels in the PRC you get extra readied maneuvers. What I'm confused about is how this interactes with the crusader readied(granted) system. If it just increases the readied maneuvers then all your doing is increasing the span before your maneuvers recycle. If it increases both your readied and granted maneuvers, then it's quite possible for various PRCs to increase your granted maneuvers much faster then a pure crusader. I'm curious how others would rule on this one.

 

[Particle_Man]

For my 12th level crusader, I don't take the extra feat, but have one boost (yes it is White Raven Tactics...stop looking at me like that!) and 5 strikes in my reperetoire, but one of the strikes only works on a charge. Thus I guarantee that I can do one strike per round, no matter what. I just don't know which one.

Boosts and Counters are a bit thin on the ground for the Crusader, though.

 

[ohGr]

On a side note, one thing I'm not sure about is how crusader's recovery system works with PRCS. For example if you go into Ruby knight vindicator, at a couple of levels in the PRC you get extra readied maneuvers. What I'm confused about is how this interactes with the crusader readied(granted) system. If it just increases the readied maneuvers then all your doing is increasing the span before your maneuvers recycle. If it increases both your readied and granted maneuvers, then it's quite possible for various PRCs to increase your granted maneuvers much faster then a pure crusader. I'm curious how others would rule on this one.

That's precisely what it says on page 96 in the Maneuvers Readied section; adding another readied maneuver to your Crusader progression gets you another granted maneuver.

 

[hong]

Boosts and Counters are a bit thin on the ground for the Crusader, though.

Crusaders don't look like they need that many counters. They already have a class ability to reroll a save, and they soak up damage like nothing else.

 

[Vysirez]

That's precisely what it says on page 96 in the Maneuvers Readied section; adding another readied maneuver to your Crusader progression gets you another granted maneuver.

Good to know. Not sure how I missed it. I'll have to read through it again.