Bo9S: Crusaders, duplicate manuevers, and the bag o' rats

[MarkB]

I'm probably very late to this discussion, but I've recently started playing some Bo9S characters, and whilst making a Crusader this evening a couple of things did jump out at me.

First of all, compare these manuevers:

Foehammer is a 2nd level Devoted Spirit strike manuever that requires a standard action to activate, targets one creature, and lets you deal an additional 2d6 damage and ignore damage reduction.

Mountain Hammer is a 2nd level Stone Dragon strike manuever that requires a standard action to activate, targets one creature or unattended object, and lets you deal an additional 2d6 damage and ignore damage reduction and hardness.​

So, what's the point of Foehammer, then? The Stone Dragon discipline is available to any Bo9S class including the crusader, and is marginally superior to an otherwise-identical Crusader-only manuever.

I could maybe see someone taking both if they're really, really dedicated to beating DR, but that seems unlikely.


Second: The crusader gets at least one stance and several manuevers that allow you to heal yourself or allies with a successful attack against another creature. The manuevers are generally written to require a credible threat, but the stance isn't. So, does this make the bag o' rats the new Wand of Cure Light Wounds?

 

[Nifft]

Foehammer is a 2nd level Devoted Spirit strike manuever that requires a standard action to activate, targets one creature, and lets you deal an additional 2d6 damage and ignore damage reduction.

... and it works on flying / swimming / etc. foes, and it works when you're flying / swimming / etc.

Mountain Hammer is a 2nd level Stone Dragon strike manuever that requires a standard action to activate, targets one creature or unattended object, and lets you deal an additional 2d6 damage and ignore damage reduction and hardness.

... when both you and your target are touching the ground.

Cheers, -- N

 

[MarkB]

... when both you and your target are touching the ground.

Cheers, -- N

Whoops, I'd missed that part. Hadn't read the little caveat at the start of the Stone Dragon section.

In fact, I'm still only seeing the "you" part. Where does it specify that your opponent must also be grounded?

 

[Zelc]

Plus, maybe you want to reliably pierce DR 2 rounds in a row. You can't ready the same maneuver multiple times, so you ready different but similar maneuvers.

(I think penetrating DR would be highly situational, so...)

Plus they count for different prerequisites.


@Martial Spirit: A useful houserule for Martial Spirit is require fighting enemies to trigger it. Leaving it alone, it basically allows for infinite out of combat healing. This will probably make people twitch, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, or overpowered, unless your entire party is made of characters who have no need of refreshing daily abilities like spells. Of course, your campaign will vary.

 

[krupintupple]

So, does this make the bag o' rats the new Wand of Cure Light Wounds?

although not illegal per se, it's liable to really raise the ire of your local DM. he'll probably just amp up every encounter possible as if you were fully healed, if you play this cheese on him.

personally, i rule that the martial strike of the devoted spirit maneuvers are subtly powered by manifest belief, as well as devotion to a particular deity or cause. beating up hapless peasants, dogs or summoned rats would most likely go against the grain of many war-like deities (since the crusader is typically more war-like than say, a cloistered priest of agriculture, or a scholarly priest of knowledge) and they would frown upon such 'wussy-man' tactics. i realize free and infinite healing is pretty awesome and certainly not 'wussy-man', but the deities and beliefs, in my campaign anyhow, would rather reward bravery, courage and ferocity in combat, above and beyond abusing legal loopholes, and their power.

ie: manly and mighty Thor disapproves such sneaky and dishonourable tactics, as he thinks that only that coward Loki would stoop to abusing poorly written rules.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In fact, I'm still only seeing the "you" part. Where does it specify that your opponent must also be grounded?

I'd also like to know, because I've never heard that before, and with all the flying/swimming/climbing/etc... enemies around that would be a significant nerf to Stone Dragon from how my groups play it now... (And, IMHO, SD is not even close to strongest discipline to begin with)

 

[Nifft]

Whoops, I'd missed that part. Hadn't read the little caveat at the start of the Stone Dragon section.

In fact, I'm still only seeing the "you" part. Where does it specify that your opponent must also be grounded?

We both missed something -- I can't find anything to back up the idea that the opponent must be on the ground.

Thanks, -- N

 

[MarkB]

We both missed something -- I can't find anything to back up the idea that the opponent must be on the ground.

Thanks, -- N

There are some Stone Dragon maneuvers which do have this requirement - you were probably thinking of one of them.

Okay, it looks like there are one or two distinguishing features between Foehammer and Mountain Hammer that could justify the existence of both, and as for the bag o' rats, I wasn't seriously considering it as a tactic (despite the fact that, in-character, my CN orc Crusader of Gruumsh would happily use any exploit he could find ), but I was hoping there'd be something more than simple ettiquette to prevent it from cropping up in other players' hands.

 

[Nifft]

There are some Stone Dragon maneuvers which do have this requirement - you were probably thinking of one of them.

Yep, generalization error.

Okay, it looks like there are one or two distinguishing features between Foehammer and Mountain Hammer that could justify the existence of both, and as for the bag o' rats, I wasn't seriously considering it as a tactic (despite the fact that, in-character, my CN orc Crusader of Gruumsh would happily use any exploit he could find ), but I was hoping there'd be something more than simple ettiquette to prevent it from cropping up in other players' hands.

Ugh, I just thought of something else bad. Martial Spirit doesn't even say you have to deal damage. You could make melee touch attacks (using e.g. Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm, if you can't justify just making plain vanilla melee touch attacks) all day.

Cheers, -- N

 

[MarkB]

Ugh, I just thought of something else bad. Martial Spirit doesn't even say you have to deal damage. You could make melee touch attacks (using e.g. Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm, if you can't justify just making plain vanilla melee touch attacks) all day.

Cheers, -- N

Ooh, that's even worse than my other idea for it, which was to pummel fellow party-members with unarmed strikes for non-lethal damage just before settling down for the night, healing all their lethal damage in the process.