[Bo9S] Time stands still + extra attacks

[hong]

Is it possible to get extra attacks with this maneuver? If so, do you get extra attacks on each full attack action, or just one?

Eg swordsage 20 attacks at +15/+10/+5 on a full attack, so that would be a base of +15/+10/+5 // +15/+10/+5 with TST. Would the following be possible:

- haste: +16/+16/+10/+6 // +16/+16/+10/+6
- two weapons: +13/+13/+8/+3 // +13/+13/+8/+3
- haste + 2 weapons: +14/+14/+14/+9/+4 // +14/+14/+14/+9/+4
- 2 rounds of whirlwind attack: +15 on everyone around you, twice

 

[Nifft]

Wouldn't haste give you +16/+16/+11/+6 on one full attack?

Looks like the haste + TWF is correct. I'm assuming you are not going to take Improved TWF?

Cheers, -- N

 

[hong]

+16/+16, yes.

It's just an illustrative example. If you can get extra attacks with TWF, then presumably you'd also get them with ITWF, Slashing Flurry, and similar feats.

I'm really wondering how the text on p.43 would apply here: "you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks...". On the one hand, that paragraph seems to be talking more about the standard rules for when you get extra attacks (ie only on a full attack). On the other, it could be a blanket prohibition on extra attacks whenever you use a strike.

 

[Nifft]

Oh right. That text is IMHO saying that you shouldn't confuse a Strike with a Full Attack. They are separate types of action, even if a particular Strike is a full-round action.*

But the text of TSS overrides that section, because it explicitly grants you two Full Attack actions. So extra attacks that occur as part of a full attack action would apply.

Cheers, -- N

*) It's my opinion that you would get to use your Cleave feat if you dropped a foe with a Strike.

 

[RigaMortus2]

+16/+16, yes.

It's just an illustrative example. If you can get extra attacks with TWF, then presumably you'd also get them with ITWF, Slashing Flurry, and similar feats.

I'm really wondering how the text on p.43 would apply here: "you cannot benefit from spells or effects that grant you extra attacks...". On the one hand, that paragraph seems to be talking more about the standard rules for when you get extra attacks (ie only on a full attack). On the other, it could be a blanket prohibition on extra attacks whenever you use a strike.

I've always assumed it was a blanket statement. Haste would not work, but TWF would. TWF is not a spell, nor do I beleive it is an "effect". Same with whirlwind attack. I don't think feats are effects, at least they are not specifically called out as an effect. (This is also (one reason) why I do not beleive a Monk can use INA, despite the FAQ).

 

[Mort]

The text on p. 43 seems to simply state that a strike itself is not a full attack.

Time Stands Still explicitly grants you 2 full attacks - anything that applies to a full attack should apply to each of these granted full attacks. In otherwords the haste extra attack etc. does not actually happen because of the strike it happens because of the full attack - just like it normally would.

long winded - but hopefuly clear.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not having Bo9S or ToB, I don't know about the intricacies of mixing strikes with extra attacks.

However, if I ignore the strike aspect and just posit a scenario that allows someone to make two full attack actions in a round:

1. Haste will grant an extra attack to each. The spell states that it grants an extra attack on a full attack action. (The same applies to the Speed special ability.)

2. Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, or Flurry of Blows will add an extra attack to one of the full attack actions. They add an extra attack per round, not per FAA; they merely require you to take a FAA in order to benefit from that extra attack per round. Taking two Full Attack Actions in one round merely gives you two different opportunities to avail yourself of that one extra attack for that round; you can't use both opportunities.

3. ITWF and GTWF increase the number of extra attacks for two-weapon fighting, so they'd inherit the 'per round' restriction.

Note that any attack penalties from Rapid Shot or Flurry of Blows will apply to every attack in the round... so even though you only gain one extra attack, for example, you suffer the penalties on all attacks from both FAAs.

-Hyp.

 

[PrinceXaxor]

Huh, you can use Whirlwind Attack in place of a full attack action. I always thought it was a special full round action. Even though, the text on 43 says that you cannot use special abilities when making strikes. No sundering with a Strike of Perfect Clarity, for instance. Again, on page 43, they rule out Haste and Speed weapons, but Two-Weapon Fighting and such aren't the same. You would get all six attacks as a Swordsage, with all three feats. Then you would get another six. I wonder what CustServ would say, but I wouldn't grant the Haste or Speed ones personally.

I have to disagree with you Hypersmurf. I'm pretty sure there was no way to take two full attack actions in one round before Tome of Battle.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have to disagree with you Hypersmurf. I'm pretty sure there was no way to take two full attack actions in one round before Tome of Battle.

I'm not certain what difference that makes?

Wielding a second weapon in your off-hand allows you to make one additional attack per round with that weapon (but if I don't take the full attack action, I can't make the extra attack).

If I take two full attack actions in one round, how many extra attacks does "one additional attack per round" get me per round?

-Hyp.

 

[PrinceXaxor]

The feat was written before it was possible to take two full attacks, right? So when it was written, you could get one full attack in one round. The two were equated as the same thing when the book was written, since at the time there was no way to get more than one full attack. Do you see what I mean?

It's a matter of Rules As Written versus Rules As Intended.