BoED: magic (items?) for ascetics

[jayaint]

That stuff isn't elvish.

Look up moondraught, should be in MaoF, too. It's a magic item.

Well, I think that's disgusting. Sentient parts of your body and all that. I suspect that the people over at Wizards' think the same, and haven't included such stuff, then.

So you just get the +x as a gift from the Angel you mentioned, without the by-product of running around like Quasimodo.

Thanks so much for the valuable input. I *was* wrong about Moonfire being Elvish. It is Selun-ish. HOWEVER... moondraught has absolutely nothing to do with Moonfire. It is not a by-product, it has cure light wounds properties and is maximized for lycanthropes.

Also... I SAID I *DON'T* want a +x "gift from an angel"... I just think that it would be a cool way of allowing the ascetic character to get some neat stuff *IN* the game, not just meta-game. NEAT STUFF does not equal "+x items". One of the coolest magic items in any of our games was a "toothpick of cleaning"... when the command word was spoken.. the toothpick would clean your teeth. Just neat stuff.

And demons, and acid spitting monsters, and succubi, and the symbiotes that *ARE* in Fiend Folio obviously weren't "disgusting" for Wizard's, now were they??? But glad to know what *YOU* think of my ideas...

Thanks again for all your valuable input.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hm... there's something wrong with your caps lock key. Check that

Also... I SAID I *DON'T* want a +x "gift from an angel"... I just think that it would be a cool way of allowing the ascetic character to get some neat stuff *IN* the game, not just meta-game.

Receiving +2 to nat armor cause one of the Paragons gifted you with it is not meta-game. It's as ingame as a skin implant that increases your armor (which is more for J.C. Denton than for an ascetic Character)

And demons, and acid spitting monsters, and succubi, and the symbiotes that *ARE* in Fiend Folio obviously weren't "disgusting" for Wizard's, now were they?

Yes. They are in Fiend Folio. Fiend Folio. A book about Fiends. Which are, evil and disgusting things. It's OK for evil to be disgusting.

But the BoED is about good characters. Good characters aren't supposed to be disgusting, not in D&D, which assumes that good and evil is a Black-or-White issue.

 

[Arravis]

Damn... there goes my idea for playing a lawful good gibbering mouther paladin

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Damn... there goes my idea for playing a lawful good gibbering mouther paladin

Hee hee.

If your DM doesn't use the black-or-white outlook in regard to alignment, he might allow it. The same DM might allow good-aligned skin-crafts, too, as a sort of test (these won't exactly give you a hefty bonus to Cha-related rolls...), but the standard way to reward ascetics will be divine bonuses like described in the BoED

 

[jayaint]

Hm... there's something wrong with your caps lock key. Check that


Receiving +2 to nat armor cause one of the Paragons gifted you with it is not meta-game. It's as ingame as a skin implant that increases your armor (which is more for J.C. Denton than for an ascetic Character)

Yes. They are in Fiend Folio. Fiend Folio. A book about Fiends. Which are, evil and disgusting things. It's OK for evil to be disgusting.

But the BoED is about good characters. Good characters aren't supposed to be disgusting, not in D&D, which assumes that good and evil is a Black-or-White issue.

Where did +2 to nat. armor come from? I never said that.

You're right.. it *is* IN-GAME. That's EXACTLY what I want it to be. In-game. Where the character can experience the growth and change associated with "gaining" something new and exciting. I wanted to give the character something, not the player. The player appreciates the ascetic stat-boosts, and bonus feats... but what does the character get???

Next, Fiend Folio. They *ARE* in Fiend Folio. WHICH IS PUBLISHED BY WIZARD'S. And you obviously haven't read Book of Vile Darkness which has an ENTIRE CHAPTER based on the idea that good vs. evil IS NOT a black/white issue. AN ENTIRE CHAPTER PUBLISHED BY WotC disagreeing with your statement. And, I OWN the BoED. I know that its about good characters. And therefore I *OBVIOUSLY* know that there is no info already in it about what I'm ASKING!!!!!

I wanted to hear from people with valuable thoughts and ideas about my original idea... if all you have to say is "That's disgusting"... well, thanks. STOP. NO MORE.

If anyone ELSE has any ideas about cool things that wouldn't violate an ascetic's Sacred Vow (per BoED) that could be used to reward the character in-game, please post and let me know. My ideas so far are: living skins, symbiotes, having a portion of your body dipped in, say, Moonfire. Things along those lines.. but any other POSITIVE, encouraging ideas are welcome.

Thanks.

 

[lodestone]

it's all good

In-game, out-game, meta or not -- I think the issue here isn't any of those things.

KaeYoss, even though *you* are of the opinion that implants, grafts, and symbiotes are "disgusting," this doesn't mean that everyone must agree with this. Maybe WotC feels as you do, but D&D has plenty of room for alternate views. Please don't post to be contrary or attempt to convice others that your views are correct.

In *my* opinion, the idea Jayaint has, is a cool one. If I recall correctly there was a creature from one of the creature books, maybe MMII, that was from the positive energy plane. It was all about battle and would merge with those who could give it the thrills, so to speak. That sort of creature is very much along the lines that we are talking about here.

Also, I seem to remember a 2nd edition Planescape creature that was made of energy and could merge with others...

-Lodestone

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Where did +2 to nat. armor come from? I never said that.

No you didn't. It was just an example for all the stuff you get from Vow of Poverty.

You're right.. it *is* IN-GAME. That's EXACTLY what I want it to be. In-game.

Please explain to me how a bonus feat or a raise in an ability score is not in-game.

Where the character can experience the growth and change associated with "gaining" something new and exciting.

He can do that with a simple bonus, too. He has made a Vow that he will never own anything (much), and that Vow gives him spiritual fulfilment, and through that, power. He starts to feel stronger because of his vow. That's as good as an in-game explanation as "I dreamt about an angel touching me and now I'm growing another eye."

I wanted to give the character something, not the player. The player appreciates the ascetic stat-boosts, and bonus feats... but what does the character get???

What you talk doesn't make any sense. The character gets those things. Wizard doesn't make player feats. That's the domain of kreynolds

Next, Fiend Folio. They *ARE* in Fiend Folio. WHICH IS PUBLISHED BY WIZARD'S.

First, you won't accomplish anything by capping at me.

And I know that the stuff you talk about is in Fiend Folio, and that's a book by Wizards of the Coast. But it's a book that handles evil things (It's not the Angel Folio). They are a lot of disgusting things in D&D, which are all evil, and almost none of these are associated with good. I see a tendency there.

And you obviously haven't read Book of Vile Darkness which has an ENTIRE CHAPTER based on the idea that good vs. evil IS NOT a black/white issue.

I have read BoVD. I suggest you do so, too. Especially the left column of page 5, where they say that D&D uses the objective approach of evil. "The evil nature of a creature, act, or item isn't relative to the person observing it; it is just evil or it isn't" That's pretty much black-or-white.

AN ENTIRE CHAPTER PUBLISHED BY WotC disagreeing with your statement.

No, there isn't. They give the alternate ruling that evil isn't black-or-white.

The book has also feats that deal with deformities, and these are [Vile] feats, which are only available to the really evil.

I wanted to hear from people with valuable thoughts and ideas about my original idea... if all you have to say is "That's disgusting"... well, thanks. STOP. NO MORE.

Once more, I don't like your attitude. Stop using capitals. Stop. No more. You only make you sound like a 13-year-old wannabe-hacker from a bash.org quote.

As I said: skin grafts and implants are usually depicted as disgusting. It's not only my opinion, but the opionion of most people in a fantasy world that has a black-or-white approach to evil. So a character who has deformities will be shunned by most people, even if he isn't evil at all. He may gain acceptance, but it won't be easy. He can expect a penalty to cha-related Checks from many people.

If the people don't have the b/w approach, than it's OK, but I deresay unless it's an enlightened nation, he will still find people with prejudices. And an enlightened nation is not the most regular location in the average D&D adventure.

It might work, but the ascetic already gains the disadvantage of poverty. He gets bonuses but can't use any items (except some very simple ones). Your idea will give him another disadvantage (unless noone in the game world cares for appearance, which isn't very likely).

If anyone ELSE has any ideas about cool things that wouldn't violate an ascetic's Sacred Vow (per BoED) that could be used to reward the character in-game, please post and let me know. My ideas so far are: living skins, symbiotes, having a portion of your body dipped in, say, Moonfire. Things along those lines.. but any other POSITIVE, encouraging ideas are welcome.

If you can't stand criticism, the boards aren't made for you.

In-game, out-game, meta or not -- I think the issue here isn't any of those things.

I agree

KaeYoss, even though *you* are of the opinion that implants, grafts, and symbiotes are "disgusting," this doesn't mean that everyone must agree with this. Maybe WotC feels as you do,

I'm pretty sure that Wizards agrees to my views with that. That's the reason books like Fiend Folio and BoVD (both handling evil things) feature these things, but BoED (for the good guys) does not. Isn't there Mindflayer Grafts or something in Underdark? Mindflayers aren't the most benevolent beings, either

but D&D has plenty of room for alternate views.

Never forget one thing: The population of your average D&D world won't be enligtened, contented saints, for they much rather thing about them and their own being fed and sheltered. They see someone with a third eye, they shy away.

Please don't post to be contrary or attempt to convice others that your views are correct.

I beg your pardon? You actually ask me not to post stuff contrary to the opinions of others? You want me not to convince others of my views? So, infact, you don't want me to do the two main things that define a discussion? This is a message board to discuss things, so I very much state my opinion and post my reasonings behind that. If you are not OK with that, I suggest you go getting brainwashed by some sect.

In *my* opinion, the idea Jayaint has, is a cool one.

Hey, your opinion differs from my. You are being contrary. By your own standards, you shouldn't do this

 

[Arravis]

Jayaint, calm down. Nothing said on any of these boards should get you this upset. Just people discussing a game, no biggie.

Personally, I think it's fine to consider using alternate ways to give bonuses to aescetic players... but I'd do so very carefully. You don't want to cheapen the inherent value of the vow... it is at its essence, more than anything, a role-playing vow. A vow whose value is found in the spirit and nature of the character who took it, not a technicality to find a way around.

 

[jayaint]

Kae Yoss (via Arravis)... I apologize. I'm sorry. We have differing views, and I shouldn't get upset, i should just accept/defend my views and move on. I'm sorry. The only thing i want to try and make clear (from previous posts) is that just like the difference between player-knowledge and character-knowledge, what you know about beholders, your char. might not know. It is the same with bonuses and feats. You as a player (w/ the DM) assign bonuses and feats to a character. But magic items, are items that exist in the reality of the character. An ascetic character will not be treated to any of these items. The whole point of my thread is not disfiguring-disgustings add-ons to a character... it concerns ways and means to allow the in-game-reality of an ascetic character to grow and change, not just numbers on his character sheet. Does that make sense?

I do apologize for my wording and re-active-ness. I just am frustrated (creative block of my own towards this subject) and was hoping for some positive feedback concerning anything that has been published concerning this idea. As that has been few and far between so far, i was just capitalized-frustrated.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Apology accepted. No hard feelings.

The only thing i want to try and make clear (from previous posts) is that just like the difference between player-knowledge and character-knowledge, what you know about beholders, your char. might not know. It is the same with bonuses and feats. You as a player (w/ the DM) assign bonuses and feats to a character. But magic items, are items that exist in the reality of the character. An ascetic character will not be treated to any of these items. The whole point of my thread is not disfiguring-disgustings add-ons to a character... it concerns ways and means to allow the in-game-reality of an ascetic character to grow and change, not just numbers on his character sheet. Does that make sense?

Yes, sort of.

But I think the Vow of Poverty is given by a character who agrees that true change comes from withing, not from Items. He abandons worldly possessions to find a greater insight to life, the universe, and everything. This insight will make him stronger, and the exalted powers of the world will give him their blessing. He doesn't need any material change, for he chagnes from within.

This change is best described via skills, feats, and bonuses. And the character does know about these things, but not like the players know about them. While a player says "my character has weapon finesse", the character just trains to use agility instead of brute force to strike with his rapier. He may not know that he has a +2 divine bonus to wisdom, but he knows that because of his meditations, he has greater insight in everything, and his will is stronger for he has trained his willpower denying himself any wealth but the wealth of knowledge.
The way I see it, the game mechanics are per definition in-game, but they're not the real thing, but a representation of "real" abilities in game-terms. Perfecting a combat style is a very tangible thing for a character.

Your idea of non-item items (implants, grafts, symbionts, whatever) is nice, but I think it is for someone with the Vow of Poverty feat. You could use it in another way, though: A character with these things isn't an classical ascetic, but an individual who explores the possiblities of the flesh and receiving an ususual sort of gift from higher beings.
Rules-wise, I suggest installing an "internal body slot" system, maybe these items are in addition to the external ones, maybe a head implant will replace a magical hat or something like that (this is because of game balance). The downside to this will be that others will consider him queer, and may shun him. This should be taken into account when deciding about the balance of these powers with the rest of the game.
Take the existing rules for grafts (evil they may be) and sanctify them as needed. This should be a good base for a new concept. And no, I'm not aware on a writeup on such a thing anywhere, but I can't know all d20 material. If your write-up is good, consider publishing it via PDF.