BoED question; Monk question

[evilbob]

I apologize if there are other threads covering this topic, but I couldn't find any (if anyone knows of one, please link to it.) I just recently started flipping through the Book of Exalted Deeds, and although I think it looks like a great concept, I found tons of typos, inconsistencies, and other errors in the book - some of which are so big, it makes me wonder if the people proof-read certain parts of this book at all. (One of the PrC's has the text for "Improved Evasion" written twice - with slightly different wording. ...Meaning that they actually took the time to write it out twice, and included both versions right next to each other.) My main question is: are there any FAQs or errata for this book, and if so where can I find them? If not, how are people dealing with the inconsistencies? Here are two examples:

Apostle of Peace
Apostle of Peace on WotC Site
One of the AoP requirements is the Vow of Poverty - which expressly says you cannot use or wear any magic item of any sort, ever, EVER. Then the W&A Proficiency description of this class talks about not wearing armor, but says that wearing magic protection items is fine (check the link). Normally I'd say this is just a simple error, but since they took an entire paragraph to explain it, it makes me wonder if there is some sort of exception to the vow here? And furthermore, why is the Vow of Poverty the only vow that does not contain text about being "magically compelled" to break the vow? All other vows go into why you aren't actually completely stripped of the vow when you're basically forced to break it against your will; this one does not. Does that mean it isn't possible, or that there are no grey areas (i.e. any prohibited action means you lose the vow, even if against your will)? (Why is this so unclear?)

Initiate of Pistis Sophia
One of the requirements for this PrC is "Sanctify Ki Strike." One of the prereqs for that feat is "Ki Strike (lawful)." Monks don't get that ability until level 10, and a straight-classed monk couldn't therefore possibly qualify for this PrC until after level 12 (since that's when they could take their next feat, and therefore the soonest they could grab Sanctify Ki Strike, as written). The 10-level Pr class was obviously written for monks, so why make requirements impossible to meet before level 10? Along those same lines, the "next" Ki Strike ability is "Holy Ki Strike" - which requires "Ki Strike (Good)" - something that never actually exists. You'd think they might mean "Sanctify Ki Strike," but that is also listed as a requirement. I'm guessing that the first Ki strike is actually tied to "Ki Strike (magic)" - since that's the first Ki strike a monk would get - and the second actually means "Ki Strike (lawful)" - since that's higher up the ladder and more consistent with how much later that feat would be taken. Ideas? (Again: why so poorly written?)


My second question is one that has undoubtedly been asked before, but again, I haven't found a thread: does a monk's (or any humanoid's) unarmed attacks count as "natural attacks?" More specifically, can a monk (or anyone who likes to attack unarmed) take "natural attack" modification feats, such as "Improved Natural Attack" from the MM? Initially, I thought "of course not," but different people seem to think different things. Ideas? Comments?

Edit: Ok, so the monk description clearly says "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." So do people usually allow monks to take Improved Natural Attack? It seems like the letter of the law supports that, but the spirit of the feat seems obviously not designed for that purpose.

 

[Particle_Man]

Note that a monk that takes vow of poverty gets a boatload of bonus exalted feats (at 1st level and at every even character level, but not retroactive if the feat is taken later than 1st level), and so could get Sanctify Ki Strike at 10th level, and so could qualify for the Initiate of Pistis Sophia then.

 

[gfunk]

are there any FAQs or errata for this book, and if so where can I find them?

No, but there might be at some future date.

Apostle of Peace
One of the AoP requirements is the Vow of Poverty - which expressly says you cannot use or wear any magic item of any sort, ever, EVER. Then the W&A Proficiency description of this class talks about not wearing armor, but says that wearing magic protection items is fine (check the link). Normally I'd say this is just a simple error, but since they took an entire paragraph to explain it, it makes me wonder if there is some sort of exception to the vow here?

Whether it is an error or not is largely irrelevant if you think about it. With the Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty, an character with this PrC will always have a higher Armor, Natural Armor, and Deflection bonus than can be provided by Bracers, Amulets, or Rings, respectively.

And furthermore, why is the Vow of Poverty the only vow that does not contain text about being "magically compelled" to break the vow?

Probably it was an oversight, because it seems kind of outlandish to be magically compelled to break your vow. However, I would use the general rule in the book that magical compulsion allows for atonement while voluntarily breaking your vow results in permanent loss of the feat.

Question about Monk PrC snipped

Sorry, it's too late for me to think about this one. Though I'm sure others will chime in.

does a monk's (or any humanoid's) unarmed attacks count as "natural attacks?" More specifically, can a monk (or anyone who likes to attack unarmed) take "natural attack" modification feats, such as "Improved Natural Attack" from the MM? Initially, I thought "of course not," but different people seem to think different things. Ideas? Comments?

Yes, a monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural and manufactured weapons for purposes of spells. Check out the description in the PHB (as you noted below). Monk's can take Improved Natural Attack -- this was actually brought in a thread in the Rules forum a few pages back.

 

[evilbob]

Note that a monk that takes vow of poverty gets a boatload of bonus exalted feats (at 1st level and at every even character level, but not retroactive if the feat is taken later than 1st level), and so could get Sanctify Ki Strike at 10th level, and so could qualify for the Initiate of Pistis Sophia then.

That's true; but that also means that this is the only way anyone could ever qualify in ten levels, and since most PrC are set up for about level 8 or so (and since the other requirements for this PrC are achievable by 8th level, like Fort/Ref/Will saves of +5), I just don't buy it. It still makes no sense - there has to be an error somewhere.

No, but there might be at some future date.

Well then I think we should start the letter-writting campaign today. : )

Whether it is an error or not is largely irrelevant if you think about it. With the Vow of Peace and Vow of Poverty, an character with this PrC will always have a higher Armor, Natural Armor, and Deflection bonus than can be provided by Bracers, Amulets, or Rings, respectively.

Actually, I think most of the bonuses granted are enhancement, unnamed, or exalted/divine somehow. I don't have the book in front of me, but still, whether or not the bonuses stack is not the issue. The point is that you can wear any magic items at all.

Monk's can take Improved Natural Attack -- this was actually brought in a thread in the Rules forum a few pages back.

If you can link to the thread, that would be great. Even still, I was wondering how people typically handled this. Technically, the monk's unarmed strike rule reads as follows: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as ... a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects..." Spells and effects don't necessarily include "feats."

Just wondering what the community consensus was.

 

[Artoomis]

I am not sure on consenus, but my conclusion was that monk's absolutely qualify for improved natural attack feat.

On the other hand, my DM decide that monk's already had an improved version of that feat, and could not take it. That makes a certain amount of sense.

 

[evilbob]

The other problem with allowing monks to use Improved Natural Attack is that it generally leads to a "slippery slope" kind of situation: for instance, if they can take Imp. Nat. Attack, should they also be able to take Multiattack after getting 3 attacks? If so, would you count "3 attacks" as being "3 base attacks" or could they get the feat once flurry had gained them 3 attacks, but only use it in conjunction with flurries?

 

[Artoomis]

The other problem with allowing monks to use Improved Natural Attack is that it generally leads to a "slippery slope" kind of situation: for instance, if they can take Imp. Nat. Attack, should they also be able to take Multiattack after getting 3 attacks? If so, would you count "3 attacks" as being "3 base attacks" or could they get the feat once flurry had gained them 3 attacks, but only use it in conjunction with flurries?

Disagree - there is no "slippery slope" argument. They can take feats related to improving natural attacks. There is only one core feat related to natural attacks for which a monk qualifies. They don't qualify for multiattack.

MULTIATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.

Whoopee - take it. It gains nothing for the monk. He has no "secondary" attacks, he has iterative attacks, not the same thing.

...An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) ...

Emphasis added.

Issues with other feats would be non-core, and so should be an issue with feat design only.

 

[evilbob]

So basically, you're saying that an unarmed strike (in any form or attack) counts as one "natural attack" for the purposes of such a feat, correct? That makes sense, and helps to quell that problem.

There is only one core feat related to natural attacks for which a monk qualifies.

And by this I assume you mean Improved Natural Attack, correct?

You are correct in saying that adding other "natural attack" feats then becomes a feat design issue, but there are some questionable feats in the BoED about natural attacks as well. Specifically, there are martial striking exalted feats, and there are natural attack exalted feats. I'm guessing that by this same logic, a monk could take both of those feats?

 

[Artoomis]

So basically, you're saying that an unarmed strike (in any form or attack) counts as one "natural attack" for the purposes of such a feat, correct? That makes sense, and helps to quell that problem.



And by this I assume you mean Improved Natural Attack, correct?

You are correct in saying that adding other "natural attack" feats then becomes a feat design issue, but there are some questionable feats in the BoED about natural attacks as well. Specifically, there are martial striking exalted feats, and there are natural attack exalted feats. I'm guessing that by this same logic, a monk could take both of those feats?

Actually. sort of. By which I mean, technically, yes, but a DM should look the feat over and see if it looks like one that the monk already is getting from a martial strike feat and then disallow that feat.

Common sense is required here, not slavish devotion to pure letter of the rules.

As for my Vow of Poverty monk - I did not even consider those feats, as it was very clear in context that they were intended as more-or-less parallel to the martial strike type of feats.

 

[evilbob]

Common sense is required here, not slavish devotion to pure letter of the rules.

Actually, part of my problem with the Initiate question posed earlier is that there are multiple possible solutions to that problem, all of which seem perfectly sensible. You could change the feat to make it more in tune with the PrC, and you could change the PrC to not require the feat. I'm sure there are more solutions. So far, I think I'm leaning toward simply leaving the faulty requirement feat (Sanctify Ki Strike) as-is, and changing the PrC to reflect a different prereq feat of some sort. (Although it does seem weak for something that basically requires you to be 10th level.) Comments? Thoughts?

As far as Imp. Nat. Attack goes, in doing further research I found that not only do many people consider Imp. Nat. Attack fine for monks, but also Ability Focus (stunning fist) - also from the MM.

As for my Vow of Poverty monk - I did not even consider those feats, as it was very clear in context that they were intended as more-or-less parallel to the martial strike type of feats.

Well, yes, but... If you allow Imp. Nat. Attack, you'd almost have to allow a monk to at least take the Sanctify Natural Attack to be consistant, even if they already had Sanctify Ki Strike. (Fortunately, with a BAB requirement of +15, that problem wouldn't come up for a while.) I guess that could just be chalked up as yet another poorly worded passage in the BoED.