Bonus Damage Dice on Critical Hits...

[Pbartender]

Often a character will be allowed bonus dice of damage on a critical hit... from a high-crit weapon or from a magic weapon's properties or soemting similar.

This question is this: If a weapon attack deals either fixed damaged or no damage (the Warlord At-Wills Opening Shove and Furious Smash would be good examples), do these bonus dice get applied on a critical hit?

Give me your opinion, please. Details on Critical Hit rules can be found on PHB page 278.

 

[Nifft]

P.255, in the magic items rules section on critical hits:

"An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit."

Nothing about constant damage attacks, though, so I'd say those do benefit from the extra damage dice.

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

Agreed with Nifft.

 

[Pbartender]

P.255, in the magic items rules section on critical hits:

"An attack that does not deal damage still does not deal damage on a critical hit."

Nothing about constant damage attacks, though, so I'd say those do benefit from the extra damage dice.

Cheers, -- N

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

 

[Nifft]

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

Yeah, and the niggling details get even worse when you think about weapons like Jagged which don't technically deal damage on a crit, they just impose "ongoing 10".

But I think the spirit of the rule is that non-damaging attacks don't do anything special on a crit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Prestidigitalis]

What about extra, non-damage effects? I'm wondering if I would get the Barbarian Rampage effect if I hit on the free attack (knock prone on hit, but do no damage) granted by Thunder Hawk Rage.

Basically, I'm looking at a Barbarian build that would try to wrack up extra attacks, of whatever sort, in order to trigger additional Rampages. Not sure if that's the most *effective* Barb build, but it looks like fun.

 

[fba827]

Alright.

That's pretty much what I was leaning toward...

But on p 278 the "does not deal damage" clause was listed under the "Maximum Damage" bullet point, but not the "Extra Damage" bullet point, which confused the issued a little. Based on that page, it's feasible that you could make a case that getting the extra damage on a non-damaging attack is not ruled out. Page 225, I think, clarifies the intent.

Thanks, guys.

While I don't have the book handy to reference, I have a strong recollection that in PHB2 there is a sidebar that talks about this. Specifically, it uses the example of getting a crit on a wizard sleep spell (an effect causing but nondamaging spell) and says that there is no crit damage bonus since there is no damage roll

But, for all i know i'm imagining it...

 

[Steve Jung]

While I don't have the book handy to reference, I have a strong recollection that in PHB2 there is a sidebar that talks about this. Specifically, it uses the example of getting a crit on a wizard sleep spell (an effect causing but nondamaging spell) and says that there is no crit damage bonus since there is no damage roll

But, for all i know i'm imagining it...

Nope. I have it right here.

page 221
Extra Damage
Extra damage is always in addition to other damage. For example, if you have a feat that causes your area attacks to deal extra damage, the extra damage doesn't apply when you use an area attack that deals no damage, such as the wizard's sleep power.

 

[Jurph]

As a DM I would be willing to entertain a proposal that a crit on a non-damaging hit might do something other than add an extra die of damage. Bull Rush, for example, might allow the player an optional extra square of push (a really good push), and something that knocks the target prone might also tack on "dazed" (he got knocked over and hit his head). Your DM will probably want to rule on a case-by-case basis, and I'd have your DM sign off on any additional effects you want to house-rule into your high-crit build before combat begins. I don't think any amount of finagling is going to get you a roll of the damage dice for an attack that doesn't otherwise include a damage calculation.

I think the PHB sidebar is pretty clear that if a critical hit earns the player the right to have damage calculated, then it also earns the extra damage dice. I would even go so far as to say that if the damage calculation results in a zero (elemental damage that is resisted, for example) the very act of starting a damage calculation still earns the player the right to roll the extra dice.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As a DM I would be willing to entertain a proposal that a crit on a non-damaging hit might do something other than add an extra die of damage.

I had this come up in my game.

The Fighter was adjacent to a velociraptor, and he said "I'm gonna punch it in the face - instead of dealing damage, can I daze it for a round?"

"Sure," I said, "give me a Str attack against Fort."

He rolled a 20.

Punching a velociraptor in the face was already pretty cool, but critting it was awesome, so I swapped "Dazed until end of attacker's next turn" to "Stunned, save ends".

-Hyp.