Bonuses to Turning level

[Kershek]

If the cleric is spending all that money on those turning boosters, they most certainly are skimping on other areas, such as offensive power or defense. Let him be very good in one area and give him the opportunity to use it. But not all of the campaign will be undead bashing and during those times he will not be as effective.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just came across a 4th level Wiz/Sor spell in the KoK Players' Guide. "Taint of Evil", Will negates - target is temporarily treated as an undead creature, including undead immunities... and may be turned/rebuked/destroyed by a cleric...

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's strange that people would think these turning items are going to ruin an undead critter's ability to challenge the party. IME, they're necessary at high levels if there is any chance of the cleric turning undead at all. High CR undead like Nightwings and Nightcrawlers seem to have HD so far above their CR that clerics have no hope of turning them unless they are decked out with something like the kit suggested at the beginning of the thread... and carry a portable altar with the consecrate spell cast on it. Even low-HD undead are very very difficult to turn at high levels if they're bolstered (not that skeletons, zombies, etc pose much of a challenge by mid levels....but turning isn't effective against them). And if any of those undead are advanced, you might still have to forget about turning them.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It's strange that people would think these turning items are going to ruin an undead critter's ability to challenge the party. IME, they're necessary at high levels if there is any chance of the cleric turning undead at all. High CR undead like Nightwings and Nightcrawlers seem to have HD so far above their CR that clerics have no hope of turning them unless they are decked out with something like the kit suggested at the beginning of the thread... and carry a portable altar with the consecrate spell cast on it. Even low-HD undead are very very difficult to turn at high levels if they're bolstered (not that skeletons, zombies, etc pose much of a challenge by mid levels....but turning isn't effective against them). And if any of those undead are advanced, you might still have to forget about turning them.

Isn't that the point, though? A Nightcrawler should never be turned. At that level, Turning is spent on the Nightcrawler's hordes of Wraith minions. Turning is already still viable at higher levels when faced with the undead hordes, it's just not very effective against a single, powerful foe, which it probably shouldn't be...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Perhaps. I guess I don't share the view that "Really Powerful" creatures are never supposed to be turned. The strange thing is though that this argument doesn't seem to apply to lower level characters and undead. If the 4th level cleric manages to turn the challenging wraith encounter, I've yet to hear complaints. If the 5th or 6th level cleric manages to turn the Spectre that was the penultimate challenge of the dungeon, few people have a problem with it. Why is it that the cleric's ability to turn undead is supposed to start functioning differently (from a story perspective) once clerics reach level 10?

And as to the argument that turning is useful against the weak undead hordes, it's only useful against undead hordes that are not accompanied by an evil cleric. Put an evil cleric in the room to bolster the undead, and 10th level clerics will be turning 2 zombies/round--if they're lucky.

Isn't that the point, though? A Nightcrawler should never be turned. At that level, Turning is spent on the Nightcrawler's hordes of Wraith minions. Turning is already still viable at higher levels when faced with the undead hordes, it's just not very effective against a single, powerful foe, which it probably shouldn't be...

 

[dok]

Turning is just a bad mechanic in general...

The problem with the turning mechanic is that it's all or nothing. At low levels, either an undead is either turned (which translates to "fleeing until he can sneak back up on you later") or rebuked (which translates into "let the rest of the party pound him into kibble") or the attempt totally fails.
At mid levels, a cleric can afford level boosting items, which, along with a modest Charisma, means he'll turn almost any monster whose CR is within 4 of the party level. Templated undead have turn resistance that really only offsets the boost to CR. Any lich or vampire that the party could expect to face will be capable of being turned/rebuked unless the DM goes hunting for exotic spells/items/templates.
And, of course, at high levels you see the other side of the coin: undead have so many HD that the cleric's turning becomes meaningless in the other direction. Nightshades can't be turned, so you have a monster that's immune to the Cleric's turning, plus is immune to the Rogue's Sneak Attack, as well as nerfing the fighter's Improved Critical & keen weapon.

I can't wait to see how Arcana Unearthed handles divine casters versus undead.

 

[Centaur]

It doesn't really matter whether you allow the bonuses to stack or not. While it might be nice to turn the realy powerful undead, it is often more important to use the ability to DUST all the week undead all around.

Allowing the items to stack just means that more of the lower level stuff us lickly to dust. If you calculate how much the cleric should be able to destroy with his available turnings and give him ample opportunity to use it before he meet the BBUEG then no prob. If he saves one or two turnings anyway, or in spite of all the hords, the cudos to him.

 

[green slime]

A nightcrawler is a CR 18 monster. It has 25 HD. It has no extra turn resistance (at least according to my version of the SRD I downloaded).

Thus an 18th level cleric armed with a Amulet of Undead turning and an 18 Charisma, has a 30% chance to turn a nightcrawler. (He needs to roll a 15 or higher on a d20, +4 for Charisma grants him the 19-21 result "Clerics Level +3")

With the amulet he is regarded as a 22nd level cleric for turning purposes, 22 +3 for the result = 25 HD. Rolling 2d6 +22 (turning level) +4 (Charisma) he needs to roll -2 in order to fail to cause enough turning damage

This is still an exciting encounter, the cleric has to choose as to whether or not to take a chance of the turn being effective. But with a large number of attempts available he should succeed within three rounds (34.3% chance of NOT affecting 25HD undead within three rounds).

Now with a +10 bonus to undead level turning, the cleric turns as a 28th level cleric and needs to roll -4 on the turning check 2d0 to have any chance to fail. Hardly a CR18 encounter.

With a +10 bonus an 11th level cleric with 16 in Charisma, has a 10% chance to affect one of the most fearsome undead creatures in the MM. If he affects the HD, he will cause the damage: (2d6+21+3). You judge whether it is appropriate or not.