Book of Erotic Fantasy previewed at GenCon

[The Blue Elf]

Well if Gamers don't like a game that has a content of sex and violence, then don't buy it.I'm not saying that its bad, or anything I understand that Buttercup has that right to express her veiw on how she feels, just because she didn't like the Pictures in the book. Hell if any Gamers wants to start some kind of sexual gaming revolution then thats fine by me, besides its just fantasy nothing more.

 

[Darkness]

There were quite a few a couple months ago when the book was announced. This is just the sequel discussion

Apart from a lot of isolated incidents, the BoVD debates once necessitated >10 locked threads in less than a day.

- Granted, that was mostly because of the pro-/anti-Tracy Hickman's comments flame wars, but still Darkness

 

[Buttercup]

When a person who, if I recall right, had a negative opinion when the book was first announced will take the time to look at a preview of it at GENCON and then post a thread on a message board about it, that's fascinating...

No disrespect to anyone who has a negative opinion about the book, I perfectly feel that is your right. However, if I had to lay money on how many of those within this society who decry this book and will eventually, quietly, end up owning it, well suffice to say my money is on the hypocrisy of human beings.

Since I started the thread, you must be talking about me. I'm not sure what you're implying. If you're wondering why I started this thread it's because, at the time of the press release, I commented that I did not like the photography at the site which was linked to. I then said, after one of the authors posted some things about the content, that it sounded less extreme and more broadly useful than the press release had led me to believe. Now though, after having seen the artwork from the preview, I find that it isn't something I would want in my house after all, regardless of the actual text of the book. I probably wouldn't have even looked at the book, but Crothian pointed it out to me. Or was it Eridanis? Anyway, I thought it would be worth sharing my opinion, now that I had some actual data. I'm not sure what is "fascinating" about that.

Surely you aren't calling me a hypocrite. I mean, you don't know me from Eve. You have no idea how I live my life, or whether I remain true to my principles, so you wouldn't have any basis to make such an accusation. In which case, that must not be what you were implying. So, what were you implying?

 

[Sirius_Black]

Surely you aren't calling me a hypocrite. I mean, you don't know me from Eve. You have no idea how I live my life, or whether I remain true to my principles, so you wouldn't have any basis to make such an accusation. In which case, that must not be what you were implying. So, what were you implying?

Please understand if I were to call you a hypocrite you would have no doubt in your mind. My post stands as it is, whatever you wish to read from it you can. For the record you might want to take a look at the second paragraph in my original post again where the only time I use hypocrisy is in regards to a future possibility. The only way I can see you believe I am calling you a hypocrite is if you actually intend to buy the book despite your protests. I in no way, stated I believe YOU would take such an action.

I hope that clears up any miscommunication we have. I certainly don't wish to offend any person on EN world who has their own adoration thread.

I'm not sure what is "fascinating" about that.

Oh, there's quite a bit fascinating in this thread. But, let's talk fascinating on another level. I am correct that what images you viewed in the preview were "repulsive" and made your "flesh crawl." Right?

However, in another thread you noted that

it was fun to quietly backtrack and slit the throats of NPCs the party had just tied up or knocked out.

when you were playing a Freeport game at GENCON.

So can you help me out there? What was in the book that was so bad to have struck a nerve, but apparently you all but busted out the marching band in roleplaying a cold blooded killer??????

 

[Buttercup]

Playing an evil dwarf cleric in a game, which I had never done before, was so far from anything I would even consider doing in real life that it was just, well, silly. It wasn't real.

Those pictures on the other hand, were too real. The juxtaposition of sex and violence has caused lots of real, honest to god horror, for lots of real, honest to god women. It isn't sexy. It's scary and and terrible and tragic. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to be more specific in this venue, and I think you must know what I'm talking about.

Since the difference between the two things is screamingly obvious to me, I admit I don't understand why you needed it explained to you. I am, perhaps, a bit too naive. Or you are disingenuous. I'm not sure which.

 

[Sirius_Black]

Playing an evil dwarf cleric in a game, which I had never done before, was so far from anything I would even consider doing in real life that it was just, well, silly. It wasn't real.

Those pictures on the other hand, were too real. The juxtaposition of sex and violence has caused lots of real, honest to god horror, for lots of real, honest to god women. It isn't sexy. It's scary and and terrible and tragic. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to be more specific in this venue, and I think you must know what I'm talking about.

Since the difference between the two things is screamingly obvious to me, I admit I don't understand why you needed it explained to you. I am, perhaps, a bit too naive. Or you are disingenuous. I'm not sure which.

Kicking yourself yet?

No, I'm not being disingenuous. I truly wanted to hear your explanation for gleefully roleplaying murder and yet being repulsed by mere photographs. Your explanation was fascinating to say the least.

I think we are just going to have state that we see things a bit differently. While I did not get to see yet the BOEF preview you did, I have viewed images and preview material posted on Valar's website. Nothing I have seen there comes close to the descriptions you stated in your second paragraph of the above quote. In fact, the way you describe the images make it sound like they had no correlation at all to the book's title, "Erotic Fantasy" and were simply random images of violence involving females. I must say that is not what I have heard from others who have viewed the preview book. Regardless, each person is entitled to view things differently and I certainly appreciating you taking the time to reply to my posts.

Your reply in fact brought to mind an encounter I had when the Book of Vile Darkness came out (apologies to Hunter1828 who will no doubt have read this twice now )

Back then, I got told by a game store owner that she refused to stock the Book of Vile Darkness because it had rape in it and rape was disgusting and not what she wanted in her store because she had been trying to teach for 20 years that gaming wasn't evil and this book was going to bring about basically the fall of humanity.

Guess what book was in my hands in her store as she ranted about this?

Green Ronin's Assassin Handbook.

Rape is bad, but cold blooded murder gets a thumbs up from her when it comes to products in her store. Ahh, people and their hypocrisy I love it, simply love it.

 

[Default Name Player]

Buttercup - To be honest, Sirius_Black has a point.

As you said, "Playing an evil dwarf cleric in a game, which I had never done before, was so far from anything I would even consider doing in real life that it was just, well, silly. It wasn't real."

However, the pictures aren't real either. They're staged...unless Valar is somehow dealing in snuff or something illegal.

You added: "The juxtaposition of sex and violence has caused lots of real, honest to god horror, for lots of real, honest to god women. It isn't sexy. It's scary and and terrible and tragic. "

However, that's adding your own personal take to it.

A person who lost a love one to violence could say the exact same thing about you finding fun in playing evil or slitting throats:

Switching out three words from what you said:
"The juxtaposition of death and violence has caused lots of real, honest to god horror, for lots of real, honest to god people. It isn't fun. It's scary and and terrible and tragic. "

Yet in both instances, neither the pictures nor the throat slitting is exactly "real". Hence it ends up being a matter of personal preference because fantasy for one person might not be the same fantasy as another.

There's nothing wrong with you not liking something - it breaks down to personal taste. For example, I personally have no need or desire to play "evil"...ever (and never have in 19 years of gaming or so), but I don't make judgement calls about others should they decide to do so. It's not my thing, but others might like it or like to try it.

However, if you deem one kind of "fantasy" to be wrong, then what's to say that your brand of "fantasy" isn't wrong either?

Just an observation

 

[Piratecat]

Rape is bad, but cold blooded murder gets a thumbs up from her when it comes to products in her store. Ahh, people and their hypocrisy

Perhaps the difference is that you're unlikely to meet anyone who is still walking around after being murdered, but many women you meet may have been raped. That makes one slightly more immediate and personal than the other.

That being said, it didn't leave a strong misogynistic impression on me. I wasn't impressed, either, and have no plans of ever picking it up.

 

[Sirius_Black]

Perhaps the difference is that you're unlikely to meet anyone who is still walking around after being murdered, but many women you meet may have been raped. That makes one slightly more immediate and personal than the other.

As opposed to the person who was stabbed with a knife and survived. I suppose it isn't as immediate to him/her as if he/she had been raped??? Your logic is falling apart there Piratecat. I understand the point you are trying to make, but it's falling apart.

In fact, one does not even need to be a victim of violence to have it feel personal. I lost a family member when I was a teenager. Guess how he died? He was stabbed to death. Believe me I feel it personally to this day, but don't hold anyone who wants to play a knife-wielding assassin as contributing in any way to my pain or the violence in society.

 

[Sirius_Black]

However, that's adding your own personal take to it.

Which in end, is the point I guess I was trying to make, but never got around to doing so. Everyone has their own pesonal take on roleplaying and what it entails. I just still do not understand how someone who can feel so strongly against the book would take the time to post a thread about it. Yes, I know Buttercup said she had data on the book now and that's why she posted this thread. Yet, she didn't have data. With all due respect, all she had was data on the images and her personal reaction to them. Nothing whatsoever about other details I have heard mentioned elsewhere that were contained within the preview book. Thus, again, I don't understand why someone would post a thread about something they felt so strongly against, unless it was a disguised rant or simply a desire to call attention to themselves.