Book of Exalted Deeds - Exalted feat question
- Thread starter Yig
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Great Mastiff Games
First Post
Well, I would say then that, from the foregoing discussion, playing an Exalted character by the book is impossible. If a character fails to kill a monster which he knows will kill, torture, rape, and devour anyone it meets, then is he not in effect permitting those evil acts? And if he does so merely to prove to himself how holy he is, isn't he committing the utmost hubris in doing so?
In short, if an Exalted character knew that killing these gnolls in their sleep would save innocents, then he would make the self sacrifice of killing them and losing his Exalted status. Wouldn't he or she choose to sacrifice his or her own powers in order to preserve an innocent from harm? And thus, ultimately, wouldn't he be serving the greater good and thus still qualify as Exalted?
This whole discussion is the reason why there are no Exalted characters in my campaign, I just use the new celestials and some of the spells, cool as the book is. The rules for Exalted characters are goodness taken to the point of self contradiction, and thus there is no way to play an Exalted character. After all, the need for a fair fight could be extended even further. Shouldn't an Exalted fighter, confronted by a gnoll, stab himself enough times to lower his hit points to equality with the gnoll's? Shouldn't he shed armor to equalize his armor class, ignore his fighting skills to get the same attack modifier? Otherwise, you could say the gnoll was killed unfairly. So Exalted characters are impossible -- fine in theory, doomed in practice.
In short, if an Exalted character knew that killing these gnolls in their sleep would save innocents, then he would make the self sacrifice of killing them and losing his Exalted status. Wouldn't he or she choose to sacrifice his or her own powers in order to preserve an innocent from harm? And thus, ultimately, wouldn't he be serving the greater good and thus still qualify as Exalted?
This whole discussion is the reason why there are no Exalted characters in my campaign, I just use the new celestials and some of the spells, cool as the book is. The rules for Exalted characters are goodness taken to the point of self contradiction, and thus there is no way to play an Exalted character. After all, the need for a fair fight could be extended even further. Shouldn't an Exalted fighter, confronted by a gnoll, stab himself enough times to lower his hit points to equality with the gnoll's? Shouldn't he shed armor to equalize his armor class, ignore his fighting skills to get the same attack modifier? Otherwise, you could say the gnoll was killed unfairly. So Exalted characters are impossible -- fine in theory, doomed in practice.
Trainz
Explorer
You are thinking in two-dimensions.Great Mastiff Games said:
You are assuming that the only option is to kill the Gnolls in their sleep. It is not.
An exalted character could silently take away all the Gnolls' weapons, have his friends set themselves next to each sleeping gnoll, weapon drawn. He then nudges the gnoll next to him with the tip of his blade, and when the gnoll wakes, put the blade under the gnoll's throat, making his intentions clear. At that point, many things can happen:
-The gnoll goes for his axe yelling (which probably gives an AoO for the exalted character). He then attacks the exalted character (with or wihout a weapon), which defending himself, slays the gnoll. The other gnolls might do the same.
-The gnoll gets the hint, and surrenders. The others upon waking, do the same. The gnolls are then captured and tied down, to be brought to justice later.
In both cases, the exalted prevented innocents to be killed by the gnolls, and retains his exalted status. In both cases, full XP are awarded to the characters.
In fact, in the game session, after the sleeping gnolls slaying room, the next room the PC's decided to captured them (more sleeping gnolls), tie them down, and actually interogated one of them and got useful info out of him. Quite useful in fact.
Trainz
Explorer
Good questions.Yig said:
An exalted character must not harm in any way an innocent critter or a defenseless one.
Lying: not really a problem... it's a case by case thing. Lying to a drunken innkeeper that you already paid for the rooms when in fact you know you didn't, not exalted. Lying to an evil guard of an evil castle that you are just a manservant coming in to work your shift while you are a spy, not anti-exalted.
Stealing: Stealing from a thief to give back the possessions to the rightful person: exalted. Pick-pocketing a random person to get a few gold: not exalted.
Bluffing: see lying.
An exalted character can kill, bluff, lie, steal. It just depends on the motive, the target, and especially the way it's done.
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As it is in the book, you shouldnt be able to kill...Almost everything can be redeem (not sure if I spell it right, comes from redemption)
So if you kill something, like an orc, arent you killing a creature that could have a chance to be redeem ?
The main contradiction I see is that first evil was something whole....I mean that orcs were evil and point.
Now, with the redemtion, orcs would have a chance to be convert...
I like exalted...actually withouth knowing it one of my characters was an exalted even before the book was printed...She was a cleric (she called hersefl healer) who believed that any creature could become good with a proper treatment. She did not carry a weapon only a knife to cut bandages and such.
That is why I try to see how you handle those things...Also an exalted character couldnt be in a perty not exalted, right?... What happens when an exalted char says doing that is evil and a paladin does noy ahree, for instance?
So if you kill something, like an orc, arent you killing a creature that could have a chance to be redeem ?
The main contradiction I see is that first evil was something whole....I mean that orcs were evil and point.
Now, with the redemtion, orcs would have a chance to be convert...
I like exalted...actually withouth knowing it one of my characters was an exalted even before the book was printed...She was a cleric (she called hersefl healer) who believed that any creature could become good with a proper treatment. She did not carry a weapon only a knife to cut bandages and such.
That is why I try to see how you handle those things...Also an exalted character couldnt be in a perty not exalted, right?... What happens when an exalted char says doing that is evil and a paladin does noy ahree, for instance?
Great Mastiff Games
First Post
I hope that you realize that in most games that have even a passing resemblence to real medieval societies, those gnolls are going to be executed as soon as they are brought in to the authorities, with no pretense of a trial? And if it does get that far, then they will probably be executed in as agonizing and protracted a manner as possible? After they're tortured to see if they have any gold hidden anywhere? So by the 'merciful' act of tying those gnolls up, the Exalted character is dooming them to being flayed, impaled, burned alive ... or other things that are probably best not mentioned in this thread, since they're too hideous to be posted somewhere where kids may see it.
Anyway, even if the society is a lawful good one that actually uses justice in meting out justice (like the Aesiive Solar Monarchs in my Acrohelion campaign), and not sadism, then those gnolls are probably going to be knocked off anyway. Unless the society is so affluent that it can permanently imprison tens of thousands of inhuman monsters that, if allowed to escape, will kill, torture, and eat innocent people without fail, then how can it logically let them go? If the character tries to redeem every evil creature to save it from this fate, the waiting list is going to become truly monstrous (in every sense).
I'm not saying that you're wrong that the rules, as written, support your interpretation of Exalted characters. In fact, I agree totally that they do, and this is the reason that I don't use Exalted characters. The logical hairsplitting gets to the point where every action can be cause to lose the Exalted status. For example, where does one draw the line for 'defenseless'? You could argue that any monster with a CR less than the PC's is defenseless, because, going man-to-man (or whatever), it IS going to lose and die. So this would mean, say, that a 20th level Exalted fighter would have to run from any monster of 19 CR or less immediately, or lose his Exalted status. True, this is an extreme example -- but the Exalted character concept is based on an extreme. Also, wouldn't that fighter have to hope that he could reduce his 20 CR foes to -10 hit points immediately? Surely he would have to bind up the wounds of an enemy at -1 to -9 hit points, since it's assuredly helpless.
Anyway, even if the society is a lawful good one that actually uses justice in meting out justice (like the Aesiive Solar Monarchs in my Acrohelion campaign), and not sadism, then those gnolls are probably going to be knocked off anyway. Unless the society is so affluent that it can permanently imprison tens of thousands of inhuman monsters that, if allowed to escape, will kill, torture, and eat innocent people without fail, then how can it logically let them go? If the character tries to redeem every evil creature to save it from this fate, the waiting list is going to become truly monstrous (in every sense).
I'm not saying that you're wrong that the rules, as written, support your interpretation of Exalted characters. In fact, I agree totally that they do, and this is the reason that I don't use Exalted characters. The logical hairsplitting gets to the point where every action can be cause to lose the Exalted status. For example, where does one draw the line for 'defenseless'? You could argue that any monster with a CR less than the PC's is defenseless, because, going man-to-man (or whatever), it IS going to lose and die. So this would mean, say, that a 20th level Exalted fighter would have to run from any monster of 19 CR or less immediately, or lose his Exalted status. True, this is an extreme example -- but the Exalted character concept is based on an extreme. Also, wouldn't that fighter have to hope that he could reduce his 20 CR foes to -10 hit points immediately? Surely he would have to bind up the wounds of an enemy at -1 to -9 hit points, since it's assuredly helpless.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
To me, this is just semantics. In either case, you're making the gnolls helpless, and then killing them. The only difference is that in your scenario,t he gnolls are aware of you and (theoretically) have a chance to surrender. Of course, you know that the gnolls won't surrender, or if they do it'll be a facade used to get them far enough away from you to continue about their business. But by taking away their weapons then waking them up at swordpoint, it makes you feel better about what you've done. "Hey, we didn't kill them while they were sleeping!"Trainz said:
A PC that believes every gnoll he comes across can or will be redeemed isn't Exalted, he's stupid. An Exalted PC will, when he sees signs of compassion in a young gnoll pup, do his best to see to it that the gnoll's compassion might be nurtured into something more, allowing the gnoll to lead a good life. When he's presented with a gnoll who shows signs he might change, then he acts on those signs.
But he doesn't shy away from killing any gnoll because of the off-chance 1 gnoll in a million might not be as evil as the others, even if he's never seen any sign of it in any gnoll he's ever laid eyes on.
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