Book of Nine Swords -- okay?

[hong]

For me it is. When even WotC thinks that the core melee classes are to weak then they should fix those classes and not create new ones to replace them inoffically.

This is known as "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

 

[Seeten]

If the bathwater is dirty, and the baby is a mongoloid, and diseased, and is on lifesupport, I support this action.

And actually, this sounds quite similar to the fighter, the retarded red headed stepchild of classes in D&D.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hah!

You already know there's a problem when there's that much multiclassing.

Don't let this guy put the "known" list into a common pool between the WB and SS. I'm pretty sure he has to keep them separate.

It goes beyond that (which you are correct on). I picked up the book. The maximum level for any maneuvers is based on martial adept class levels in WB or SS (initiator levels for a PrC as best I can tell).

So, a PrC could have higher level maneuvers, but to get a 3rd level WB maneuver, one must have at least 6 levels in WB.

Only WB maneuvers can be regained with a swift action (without a feat), so any higher level PrC maneuvers do not get that advantage.


After reading this, I do not see any significant balance issues at all. If the PC multiclasses, he will make it difficult for himself somehow. And, the maneuvers my DM was using, he was not using them correctly. Hence, the reason they seemed totally broken.

 

[bestone]

I dislike the twinkers handbook...errr i mean book of 9 swords

For many many many many reasons

Anyone want to flame me for that first comment? i'll direct you to a few posts on builds where you can get +112 to a trip roll, or do over 25,000 damage in a round

but no no wait.....its balanced....

 

[FireLance]

It goes beyond that (which you are correct on). I picked up the book. The maximum level for any maneuvers is based on martial adept class levels in WB or SS (initiator levels for a PrC as best I can tell).

Not exactly. It's WB levels plus half levels in other classes for WB maneuvers, and SS levels plus half levels in other classes for SS maneuvers. A WB 6/ SS 4 has an initator level of 8 for WB maneuvers and an initiator level of 7 for SS maneuvers. If he picked up another WB level, he'd have an initiator level of 9 for WB maneuvers, and can select 5th-level maneuvers.

So, a PrC could have higher level maneuvers, but to get a 3rd level WB maneuver, one must have at least 6 levels in WB.

The initiator levels for some PrCs stack with initator levels from martial adept base classes. Offhand, I can't remember how this works if you have multiple martial adept base classes, but if it stacks with all of them, a WB 6/SS 4/PrC 2 would have an initator level of 10 for WB maneuvers and 9 for SS maneuvers, and could pick up 6th-level WB maneuvers with another WB or PrC level.

Only WB maneuvers can be regained with a swift action (without a feat), so any higher level PrC maneuvers do not get that advantage.

I think PrCs use the recovery method of their base martial adept classes. Again, I can't remember offhand how this works for characters with multiple martial adept base classes.

After reading this, I do not see any significant balance issues at all. If the PC multiclasses, he will make it difficult for himself somehow. And, the maneuvers my DM was using, he was not using them correctly. Hence, the reason they seemed totally broken.

Just a warning that martial adepts may multiclass better than you think, even if correctly used, they aren't as powerful as your DM was playing them. I really like the Book of Nine Swords, but I recognize that it's not for everybody.

 

[FireLance]

25,000 damage in a round

I think it's balanced against the core-only 15th-level wizard using a maximize metamagic rod with a widened cone of cold to deal 35,820 points of damage in one round - assuming all his enemies are packed into the 398 squares affected by his spell, and they all fail their saving throws, of course.

 

[Justin Cray]

I think it's balanced against the core-only 15th-level wizard using a maximize metamagic rod with a widened cone of cold to deal 35,820 points of damage in one round - assuming all his enemies are packed into the 398 squares affected by his spell, and they all fail their saving throws, of course.

OK, I lol'ed.

 

[Nail]

It goes beyond that (which you are correct on). I picked up the book.

Before I get started on a rant: I actually like the book. The flavor and the basic mechanics are good -- but the specific mechanics require polishing, to say the least.

The maximum level for any maneuvers is based on martial adept class levels in WB or SS (initiator levels for a PrC as best I can tell).

As FireLance points out, initiator levels are equal to WB levels + SS levels + 1/2 other levels. The multiclassing PC this guy wants has enough initiator levels (8) to get a 3rd level power. In general, the multiclassing rules for ToB:Bo9S are quite generous.

Only WB maneuvers can be regained with a swift action (without a feat), so any higher level PrC maneuvers do not get that advantage.

Not quite.

Only maneuvers known through the WB class (he can know 5 at 4th level) can be regained by the "Swift action + normal melee attack" combo. Depending on how the class levels were taken, of course......

After reading this, I do not see any significant balance issues at all. If the PC multiclasses, he will make it difficult for himself somehow.

You should read it again. And, "If I Were You", I'd work up some test case characters. Try taking a WB from 1st to 12th level, for example. I found it quite illuminating.
...and a bit scary.

 

[Nail]

According to him, it is not just conditions. It is spells, effects, and conditions.

Also, he is the DM in our current 20th level campaign and he is having NPCs use these abilities right and left (i.e. more than once per combat, practically every round) to auto-dispel spells. Solid Fog spell, no problem. One NPC auto-dispels it, the other NPCs come out and attack.

Holy crap.

You've got to be kidding me.....that's one heck of a generous interpretation of that ability!!!

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengence against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

Your DM has a text-based argument ("select one spell..."), but it's such an over-the-top interpretation that it can't withstand much scrutiny.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Yes, I pointed this out to him, but I do not have the book.

According to him, it is not just conditions. It is spells, effects, and conditions.

Also, he is the DM in our current 20th level campaign and he is having NPCs use these abilities right and left (i.e. more than once per combat, practically every round) to auto-dispel spells. Solid Fog spell, no problem. One NPC auto-dispels it, the other NPCs come out and attack.

I suspect he just has not carefully read the book. I cannot imagine WotC wrote something that allows some of the things he is doing.

The unofficial ruling on this (via CustServ I beleive) is that Iron Heart Surge only effects spells, effects and conditions that specifically target you (so, you can't dispel area effects for example, such as AMF).