Books pricing themselves out of reach?

John Morrow said:
No. You just don't fully understand the economics of printing books. The short answer is that the more books you print, the cheaper they are to produce. Coffee table books have print runs that most role-playing game publishers could only dream of. If you really want a good comparison for the price of role-playing games, take a look at niche low-print run academic publications where you'll find plenty of books priced at $40, $80, or even $120. You can also look at the books published for other small niche hobbies. They are frequently quite expensive, too.

No one is arguing that school books aren't expensive. However, in almost any Becks Bookstore I go to, I can find a used copy for less than 1/2 price. Not quite so with any RPG store. We won't get into cycling.

John Morrow said:
Consider inflation. When my father was a child, you could get a loaf of bread for $0.05. Does that mean that bakers are ripping people off because they no longer sell a loaf of bread for a nickel? The cost of paper and printing have gone up substantially since the 1970s for a variety of reasons (e.g., stricter environmental controls on paper production, higher labor costs, higher demand, better quality, etc.). Consider how much even mass market paperbacks have increased in cost since the late 1970s.

John, I'm talking a few years. I'm not talking ten years ago. I'm talking maybe three or four. Not the 1980's where a hardcover black and white player's handbook went for $15.00 or $20 but like 2002. From $12.95 to $25.00.


John Morrow said:
Printing books in Canada isn't as much of a bargain as it used to be since the US decided to let the dollar weaken to correct trade imbalance problems. That it's no longer as much of a bargain to print in Canada is part of that correction.

And that's why they've started printing them in China for further discounts no?


John Morrow said:
When you see role-playing game publishers and writers drive up to GenCon in a Bently covered with bling, you'll know you are being ripped off. Simply put, they are selling books at what they have to sell them for to make money and stay in business and they money they are making isn't that spectacular. The alternative isn't cheaper books but no books, because they'll be out of business. The only alternative is for role-playing to become mainstream enough that they sell books measured in the hundreds of thousands of copies rather than thousands of copies.

John, please read my post. Remember I said I don't feel that RPG's are too expensive for what you get. I feel that they're just pricing themselves out of casual reach. Picking up Chaositech for casual use in the campaign at $20 is something everyone can consider. Picking up Shackled City, even though it's reasonably priced for what you get at $60, isn't. They don't put the $50 steaks at the checkout counters. They put the .60 cent gum.

RPG's cannot think to compete with video games, computer games or other forms of entertainment that come down. They cannot think to compare themselves, for younger people, to colletable games that have a low investment cost and allow a greater deal of trade. They will lose every time.
 

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Mr. Lobo said:
For me, WotC's strategy backfired. I got the Core Books when they came out at about $20.00 (US) a pop.

Remember that, as WotC even stated at that time, the $20 price on those books was a teaser price. They claimed that those were really $30 books, and they did an introductory discount for the first year or so to stimulate purchases. Now, did they spoil gamers into expecting full-color, hardcover books for under $30? Maybe.

Mr. Lobo said:
I got the FRCS when it came out. I thought it was such an outstanding product that I felt justified in spending the $30.00 (I think?).

Actually, it had a MSRP of $39.95 (though you certainly may have gotten it for less). I remember buying it, and thinking, (a) that's expensive, but (b) that's a lot of book.
 

Over the past 2-3 years, I have found myself buying more and more game books through eBay and other steep discounters. Why? Simple economics. My budget is very limited of late (even more so now due to some medical expenses), yet I love many game books. This way I get the most bang for the buck.

OTOH, I tend to buy Malhavoc Press stuff first hand, and Green Ronin when I can. Why? Because I really believe these companies put out the best D20 material going and I want to support them directly.

Kinda odd, I know, but that's how my mind works...
 

The high MSRPs have completely driven me to online purchases.

I use amazon, gameoutfitter, frpgames, stiggybaby, and e-bay. We have a local vendor who sells RPGs who I would love to continually buy from, but I just can't ignore the 34% savings of amazon - even with the horrid delays in shipping.

Actually, I'm waiting for at least 50% (or more) off on e-bay for most non-adventure d20 purchases. I figure many of them will be there eventually.

With $40+ becoming the standard price for non-wotc hardbacks from d20 companies, that's a bit much for me to spend consistently.
 



Mark said:
Won't people always pay as little for something as they can legally get it?
No, but they need to beleive that the premium they are paying serves some greater good. For instance, I buy tons of stuff on Amazon (and am considering signing on for that Amazon Prime thing) but I haven't and will not buy game books online or from any major retailers.

The knowledge that I am helping my local game store(s) stay in business by buying from them is worth the extra 15 or so percent.
 

JoeGKushner said:
RPG's cannot think to compete with video games, computer games or other forms of entertainment that come down. They cannot think to compare themselves, for younger people, to colletable games that have a low investment cost and allow a greater deal of trade. They will lose every time.

Can't they, though? I'm wondering about Warhammer, for example. They don't come down any more than dead RPG back-stock, and yet they turn a healthy profit....and mostly from young purchasers. The average new video game costs $50, and rumor has it that the price point will increase for the next generation of hardware. Someone is obviously buying all those copies of GTA:San Andreas, Halo 2 and Half-Life 2, and the hardware to run them. Most of the best-selling video games never come down in price except for sales or when they become part of a 'best-seller' series. And unlike a video game, which can become outdated or obsolete, my copy of Midnight won't (at least, not from a usability standpoint...from a game preference standpoint, perhaps...but that's another discussion).

Yes, many video games can be purchased used, but it's a different market model, where a great deal of emphasis is getting the game at launch time. Playing a game on launch day is tantamount to seeing a Star Wars/Star Trek movie on opening day. Many fans are willing to pay the premium. Clearly, many purchasers of a game like Halo 2 aren't doing a lot of price searching...particularly if they're purchasing it as a gift, for example. Halo 2 is available at dozen of outlets near me, such as game stores, department stores, record stores and, in some cases, supermarkets and wholesalers. A lot of folks were waiting at the stores at midnight to get GTA:SA...just like plenty of people paid more than retail for a Nintendo DS during the holidays last year. On the other hand, virtually no other publisher but WotC can even get recognized outside of the game store space, and few locations outside of a book store of any stripe will even listen to them, the big dog of the niche market and a subsidiary of a toy-making GIANT.

To a portion of the market, seeing Hitch at the $1.50 theater three months after it comes out is a worthwhile trade-off. But for RPG players, that doesn't happen nearly as often, if ever, IME. Just because you purchased Races of Destiny doesn't mean you'll do anything other than read it for until days, weeks, months or years afterward.

I think the real question is: do RPG books contain enough value to demand their cost over the favor of other entertainment forms?

Personally, I think the problem is just that RPGs are still too much of a niche hobby, and that the rising costs associate with production (and the rise of the web and PDFs) have made printed books less valuable to the consumer. Combine that with the embarassment of riches in material available, and you have a problem.
 

WizarDru said:
The average new video game costs $50, and rumor has it that the price point will increase for the next generation of hardware. Someone is obviously buying all those copies of GTA:San Andreas, Halo 2 and Half-Life 2, and the hardware to run them. Most of the best-selling video games never come down in price except for sales or when they become part of a 'best-seller' series.


That's not really true, though. Many, many, many games are released at $20 or even cheaper. Some suck, but some are surprisingly good.

Most of the video games I own were bought at that price. And most games go down to about that level a year or so after their release. Not all, ones that still sell well at $50 tend to stay at $50. But even a lot of big hits go down to $20 after a year. GT3 did. KOTOR1 did.


Anyway, with regard to books, I don't mind the higher prices for big books. But I hate the $25 (or higher) 96 page books. Those are a rip off, IMHO
 

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