Books pricing themselves out of reach?

[Ogrork the Mighty]

What's the average print run on a textbook?

joe b.

I've seen it as low as 20-30 in Masters programs. I have no idea what it would be for all textbooks, and I don't think that number would be very meaningful. Earlier year courses tend to be much larger than latter years, so the run is probably significantly larger for those courses. But still, that's what?, 75-200 people (and even that's pretty large). To my knowledge, I've never heard of universities getting together to mass order textbooks. Maybe a couple profs do it, but not many. In the past 5 years I've seen a marked change in profs' attitudes as they realize students, (a) aren't willing to pay such high prices for textbooks, and (b) they aren't reading most of the material anyways, so placing a high cost on it only increases the # of students who won't buy the book. Then the bookstore gets stuck with piles of books it can't sell and the publisher won't take back.

 

[Mark]

No, but they need to beleive that the premium they are paying serves some greater good. For instance, I buy tons of stuff on Amazon (and am considering signing on for that Amazon Prime thing) but I haven't and will not buy game books online or from any major retailers.

The knowledge that I am helping my local game store(s) stay in business by buying from them is worth the extra 15 or so percent.

Well, yes, but technically the "something" you're getting is no longer just paying for the book. You're also paying to maintain the resource of a FLGS (noble and worthwhile, IMO). I do the same. But I also like to get it from my FLGS for as little as I can, as well. That's really my point, I think. (Not to quibble over semantics)

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I pretty much buy books exclusively from Amazon now. I find my FLGS to be simply far too expensive with, IMO, unreasonable markups. It's going to kill the local gaming stores, I know, but c'est la vie; the market evolves. I do think that WotC better tread very carefully b/c they're walking a fine line between making a nice profit and compelling a lot of potential consumers to begin downloading their products like fiends.

 

[John Morrow]

No one is arguing that school books aren't expensive. However, in almost any Becks Bookstore I go to, I can find a used copy for less than 1/2 price. Not quite so with any RPG store. We won't get into cycling.

Well used books and remaindering are probably something that's not done enough in the RPG market (though I have seen game stores that do it) but it's also an issue of volume. How many books does Becks Bookstore move in a day? How many books does an RPG store move in a day? That's really a large part of my point. You can't realy compare two industries with different sales volumes even if they are, broadly speaking, selling the same thing. And, ultimately, used book sales won't help RPG publishers stay in business, either, so I'm not sure it would be good for the hobby as a whole to start cycling product like that.

John, I'm talking a few years. I'm not talking ten years ago. I'm talking maybe three or four. Not the 1980's where a hardcover black and white player's handbook went for $15.00 or $20 but like 2002. From $12.95 to $25.00.

A few years ago, game publishers were dealing with expectations set in the 1970s and early 1980s. Do some searching on Google's Usenet archive and you'll find posts from the 1980s and early 1990s with people saying, "I can't believe RPG books cost $20." Because of that, prices were kept artificially low and didn't keep up with inflation. Only now is that correction finishing and new RPG books actually cost what those 1970s books would now cost, adjusted for inflation.

And all of that low-ball pricing had a negative impact on the hobby, too. A lot of game companies died or didn't grow because of it.

And that's why they've started printing them in China for further discounts no?

China is still a bargain because they refuse to float their currency but I'm not sure how long that's going to last.

John, please read my post. Remember I said I don't feel that RPG's are too expensive for what you get. I feel that they're just pricing themselves out of casual reach.

People have been complaining about that since RPGs starting costing $20 on average. There are plenty of recreational activities where lots of people don't even bat an eye over spending a lot more money. I think the bigger problem is that too many role-players are, frankly, cheap. This hobby is too small for a publisher to price books the way people seem to think they should be priced.

Picking up Chaositech for casual use in the campaign at $20 is something everyone can consider. Picking up Shackled City, even though it's reasonably priced for what you get at $60, isn't. They don't put the $50 steaks at the checkout counters. They put the .60 cent gum.

I'm not sure the industry can survive on casual buys, anyway. They aren't selling gum and shouldn't be trying to sell it like gum. It takes too much work to publish a book and the sales volume is too low to ever make the sort of price point you are thinking of economically viable. A role-playing system or set of core books is more akin to a game console rather than a console game. I'm sure the Playstation 2 would sell like hotcakes at $20 but they just can't make them at a profit at that price.

Yes, role-playing game companies tried lowball in the past, including early in the d20 days. I see no evidence that it does anything but bankrupt companies. That's why there is a joke in retail about losing money on every sale but making it up with volume.

RPG's cannot think to compete with video games, computer games or other forms of entertainment that come down.

The problem isn't price, which is what you are suggesting. The price point on a new video game or computer game is up there with the price of those expensive role-playing books, and that's not even going into the price of a console game or computer (which is akin to buying a set of core rule-books). Yes, you can get used console and computer games for much cheaper but the game makers don't care about those sales because that money doesn't flow back to the game maker.

They cannot think to compare themselves, for younger people, to colletable games that have a low investment cost and allow a greater deal of trade. They will lose every time.

I'm just not seeing the lack of money with younger people that you are. I remember being lucky to have a little black and white television set in my bedroom as a kid and a used car when I get to college (the car was almost as old as I was). Now I see all the college kids on the same campus I went to driving new SUVs and sports cars and blowing the electrical circuits on campus with computers, televisions, microwave ovens, etc. There are also plenty of kids walking around with cell phones and iPods. It's not that the money isn't out there. It's either (A) the people with that money aren't interested in RPGs or (B) the people who are interested in RPGs have better things to spend their money on.

 

[TerraDave]

There has been a move to more expensive, but hopefully better books (though editing doesn't seem to count). It is the bottom end of the market that seems to have vanished or moved to pdf. Consumer preferences must be playing a big part in this--experienced companies wouldn't do it otherwise. At least until too many hard backs are churned out and that part of the market also collapses.

(and buying imported gaming books in Europe was very expensive)

(and college text books are a scam . The publishers know that students are compelled to buy them, and price accordingly. They also come out with new editions to undermine the resale market. My expereince in academia in many years is that the closer to the cutting edge the work, the slower the new editions come out)

 

[Sleepy Voiced]

I think I missed Joe's point, and I think I agree with it. Role-playing books do seem to be getting too expensive for casual purchases, and I think that does make it more difficult for younger people to get into gaming. I know it is kids that have the most disposable income, but game BOOKS have to compete with video games, CCGs, hula-hoops and whatever other crazy things kids today are into. Books really don't compare for younger buyers, by and large. Anecodotally, I gave my nephew a copy of the basic set for Christmas, he loved it, but he is really into Yu Gi Oh and various other collectable games. He was wondering if you had to get every new release to stay current. I explained D&D is a bit different, but in my mind was realizing that is exactly how a lot of us gamers, myself included, approach new products. We have to get them all. Perhaps there is something in the way the game is marketed. I can see that aspect of gaming being a deterrent. There are shelves and shelves of books and most of them say they are Dungeons and Dragons, and a lot of the others say they are compatible with D&D- which ones do I actually need? That could be a bit daunting if new to the hobby.

 

[TerraDave]

As the age polls have confirmed, this is a hobby for the midle aged, or those rapidly approaching it.

I think the basic set and the minis are really the only things focused on younger gamers

 

[arscott]

No one is arguing that school books aren't expensive. However, in almost any Becks Bookstore I go to, I can find a used copy for less than 1/2 price. Not quite so with any RPG store. We won't get into cycling.

But RPGs do go into cycling, sort of.

Text books are used repeatedly until they wear out, so the companies that publish them have to find some way of getting their customers to buy newer books. Ditto for RPG books. The difference is merely a matter of who's doing the using.

But the two fields have different solutions to solving those problems. RPG companies actually produce innovative material and renovate new material in significant and relevent ways. College Textbook publishers, on the other hand, take advantage of the fact that the people selecting their products aren't the ones purchasing them, often doing no more than making minor formating changes and switching the order of some chapters.

Frankly, Textbook companies are a perfect example of companies that ARE overcharging for their product, and it is evident in comparison that the RPG companies aren't.

 

[John Morrow]

I do think that WotC better tread very carefully b/c they're walking a fine line between making a nice profit and compelling a lot of potential consumers to begin downloading their products like fiends.

And when that happens, everyone will be sitting around on these discussion boards crying about why Hasbro shut down the RPG division of WotC and no new commerical D&D material is being produced.

All other ethical considerations aside, file sharing works like a leech. One can put dozens of leeches on an elephant and it will survive. Put a handful of leeches on a mouse and you'll get a dead mouse. The music industry is an elephant. The role-playing industry is a mouse.

And I'll touch, again, on the the point there may be too many cheap people in this hobby. And given the anti-theft efforts that a lot of game stores have to use as well as file-sharing and photocopying, it's got plenty of people who want something for nothing, too.

 

[Kaji]

I have seriously cut back on my purchase of books and pdf's. (Which is good, I was a little out of control )

I prefer to buy my gaming material via electronic format, because
A. The price is right and
B. They can be oncluded on my laptop easily.
I tried sticking hardcover books in, but Dell says that violates the warranty.

That being said, I still buy physical books upon occasion if either the price is right (like Bastions and FFGs sales around Christmas, wow, I made out like a bandit!) of it is something that will add great value (Denizens of Advadnu was an excellent purchase).

If I had to pay full or near full price for all the content I would like to see, it would be way too expensive. So, I'm willing to pay almost any reasonable price for a quality hardcover, but my need/desire would have to be great.

Now that WotC is releasing .pdfs for new books on drivethrurpg, it would take something incredible to get me to buy a hardcover from them in the future.

I don't think a good hardcover, with great art and content, is too expensive in general, just too expensive to make it my only access to new material.