Books that Improve Skills

[cjosephs1s]

"Use Magic Device, for instance, I would generally make more expensive to increase than other skills just because the skill is so useful. "

Don't base skill price on subjective things (such as usefulness as this can be argued by every DM and player till both sides just decide to walk away from the table)otherwise its hard for players to believe without just telling them "because I'm the DM and I say so" and players don't like to hear very often either. Also certain classes will find some skills very useful and other classes will find them worthless (concentration to a fighter is worthless). Also no other magic item is based on subjective pricing such as "usefulness" its based off of a formula. The +6 Belt of Str is the same price as a +6 Headband of Int not because they offer the same usefulness but because they are based on the same formula to create them.

The usefulness of a skill is highly subjective and will vary from DM to DM, from player to player, and from game session to game session with each of those. Over half the skills on the sheet we've never had to make a check for in the last 5 years. You're DM may use almost all of them.

And usually if you combine all the information about the guidelines of how to make magic items, and look at what was created with those guidelines formulas are very easy to come up to create and price just about any magic item correctly. At one time our group had creation of 95%+ of all magic items down to a science with hard formulas that when applied to just about any item in the MIC or DMG were maybe only a few gp off. And thus could create any item from scratch that our DM would allow. I've been slowly working to rebuild this list.

 

[airwalkrr]

"Use Magic Device, for instance, I would generally make more expensive to increase than other skills just because the skill is so useful. "

Don't base skill price on subjective things (such as usefulness as this can be argued by every DM and player till both sides just decide to walk away from the table)otherwise its hard for players to believe without just telling them "because I'm the DM and I say so" and players don't like to hear very often either. Also certain classes will find some skills very useful and other classes will find them worthless (concentration to a fighter is worthless). Also no other magic item is based on subjective pricing such as "usefulness" its based off of a formula. The +6 Belt of Str is the same price as a +6 Headband of Int not because they offer the same usefulness but because they are based on the same formula to create them.

The usefulness of a skill is highly subjective and will vary from DM to DM, from player to player, and from game session to game session with each of those. Over half the skills on the sheet we've never had to make a check for in the last 5 years. You're DM may use almost all of them.

And usually if you combine all the information about the guidelines of how to make magic items, and look at what was created with those guidelines formulas are very easy to come up to create and price just about any magic item correctly. At one time our group had creation of 95%+ of all magic items down to a science with hard formulas that when applied to just about any item in the MIC or DMG were maybe only a few gp off. And thus could create any item from scratch that our DM would allow. I've been slowly working to rebuild this list.

You are almost entirely incorrect here. I recommend a thorough reading of the section in the DMG which talks about designing your own magic items. In fact, you seem to contradict yourself. You say that the usefulness of a skill is subjective, then insist that everything be determined by a common formula. Well if Use Rope is a skill that is never used in a given campaign while Knowledge (local) is used heavily, why wouldn't an item with a bonus to Use Rope be worth less than an item with the same bonus to Knowledge (local). Many DMs change the prices of certain items in their campaigns, and are in fact encouraged to do so by the DMG if it fits their campaign model. A DM running a campaign where undead are particularly powerful might raise the price of a phylatery of undead turning to represent the difficulty in fighting such creatures.

So yes, the subjectivity of the DM is very much a part of the decision-making process, as it ought to be. Not every skill is created equal in every campaign.

 

[Grazzt]

Is there precedent within the rules for books that once read, give a permanent bonus to a skill (specially Knowledge skills)?

If not, what do you think of the idea?

Someone's been playing Fallout

 

[cjosephs1s]

So does this mean I can have the Use Rope book for 10gp for a +20 skill bonus since a longsword is more valueable to the campaign than this skill??? lol This is what you have just suggested if you base price on "usefulness"

Prices are changed on Supply and Demand economics. Yes even in mythical fantasy realms the law of supply and demand holds true. This is why DMs are allowed to change Market prices for their specialized campaigns. Usually magic items have a certain degree of this built into them. This is partly why higher level items are very very expensive: they are few in number as there aren't many 20th level wizards around creating them and it takes months to make them.

However using this supply and demand model I can, since you want to base things on a subjective approach, argue that since Use Rope isn't used by many adventurers is much harder to find than Knowledge (local). As many people will be producing the local tome while almost no one is going to produce the rope tome and thus driving the price of the rope tome up considerably and the local tome down. Even though the Rope tome is harder to find its also harder to sell, thus driving the price back down. And even though the the Local tome is produced in vast quantities its also easier to sell, thus driving the price up. So both tomes sell for their listed prices.

Hence..don't use subjective factors in price (also please note I do have a degree in Economics.) as it gets messy unless you are going to do it across the board and say all magic items are 20% higher/lower than listed due to certain economic factors. If this is a brand new item that's just discovered then sure, jack the price up to double due to there's only one guy that can make them and he knows it (for now at least). But that guy isn't going to go..hmmmm..i think this skill is worth more than that one. He's a wizard, not a market researcher. But after his technique gets out and more and more people start making them the price will come down to the listed price. Now maybe after years of the books being on the open market some regions might have price despencies due to local factors (housing is more expensive in CA than MO for example) but it took decades for this trend to develop. But this isn't based on usefulness. Its based on regional supply and demand laws.

 

[kitcik]

So does this mean I can have the Use Rope book for 10gp for a +20 skill bonus since a longsword is more valueable to the campaign than this skill??? lol This is what you have just suggested if you base price on "usefulness"

Prices are changed on Supply and Demand economics. Yes even in mythical fantasy realms the law of supply and demand holds true. This is why DMs are allowed to change Market prices for their specialized campaigns. Usually magic items have a certain degree of this built into them. This is partly why higher level items are very very expensive: they are few in number as there aren't many 20th level wizards around creating them and it takes months to make them.

However using this supply and demand model I can, since you want to base things on a subjective approach, argue that since Use Rope isn't used by many adventurers is much harder to find than Knowledge (local). As many people will be producing the local tome while almost no one is going to produce the rope tome and thus driving the price of the rope tome up considerably and the local tome down. Even though the Rope tome is harder to find its also harder to sell, thus driving the price back down. And even though the the Local tome is produced in vast quantities its also easier to sell, thus driving the price up. So both tomes sell for their listed prices.

Hence..don't use subjective factors in price (also please note I do have a degree in Economics.) as it gets messy unless you are going to do it across the board and say all magic items are 20% higher/lower than listed due to certain economic factors. If this is a brand new item that's just discovered then sure, jack the price up to double due to there's only one guy that can make them and he knows it (for now at least). But that guy isn't going to go..hmmmm..i think this skill is worth more than that one. He's a wizard, not a market researcher. But after his technique gets out and more and more people start making them the price will come down to the listed price. Now maybe after years of the books being on the open market some regions might have price despencies due to local factors (housing is more expensive in CA than MO for example) but it took decades for this trend to develop. But this isn't based on usefulness. Its based on regional supply and demand laws.

You show a unique misunderstanding of economics to the point of absurdity.

All things that cost the same to manufacture will cost the same retail b/c of the supply/demand balance? Under this model, +20 Use Rope is worth less than a longsword? Sad what our schools are producing these days.

One thing I agree with though. Due to the complicated nature of economics, it is usually just easier to use the list prices for everything. Trying to build real economics into a campaign is too difficult for the payback IMHO. As DM, you should just adjust prices / availability based on how many of the item you are willing to have floating around.

 

[cjosephs1s]

Kitcik, you misunderstood about 90% of what I said on economics (and please don't insult my economics education...or education in general. I got the same education in Microeconomics as the kids at Harvard that year and the year I started school it was ranked #1 best undiscovered business school by WSJ)

 

[kitcik]

OK, here we go Mr. Economics.

So does this mean I can have the Use Rope book for 10gp for a +20 skill bonus since a longsword is more valueable to the campaign than this skill??? lol This is what you have just suggested if you base price on "usefulness"

No it doesn't mean that or suggest it in any way. Why does you degree in economics lead you to believe that prices based on utility would result in the above? No one has even defined the "universe" in question: how useful the book is vs. the longsword, or how costly they are to produce. All that was stated was that things that are more useful are generally in higher demand and would therefore, all other things being equal, have a higher price. It's the cup vs. the cup with a hole in the bottom. Which would you pay more for? Because an item won't be sold for a price less than what ou are willing to pay (barring a price war).

Prices are changed on Supply and Demand economics.

True.

Yes even in mythical fantasy realms the law of supply and demand holds true.

This is up to the DM.

This is why DMs are allowed to change Market prices for their specialized campaigns.

This contradicts what you say above regarding the book of Use Rope and the longsword. Oops. I though you want book proce for everything. Why would it change in a specialized campaign base don supply and demand? Maybe because certain items are more (or less) useful in a specialized campaign?

Usually magic items have a certain degree of this built into them. This is partly why higher level items are very very expensive: they are few in number as there aren't many 20th level wizards around creating them and it takes months to make them.

Certainly high level items are low in supply, but there are so few characters running around that can use or afford them, shouldn't the price drop based on your logic? Seems like you are being internally inconsistent in your analysis.

However using this supply and demand model I can, since you want to base things on a subjective approach, argue that since Use Rope isn't used by many adventurers is much harder to find than Knowledge (local). As many people will be producing the local tome while almost no one is going to produce the rope tome and thus driving the price of the rope tome up considerably and the local tome down. Even though the Rope tome is harder to find its also harder to sell, thus driving the price back down. And even though the the Local tome is produced in vast quantities its also easier to sell, thus driving the price up. So both tomes sell for their listed prices.

This is where you SEEM to say that more useful items and less useful items will always revert to their "list" price. It is not clear what the "list" price is based on, but presumably some combination of the cost/difficuly of manufactore and the utility of the item. I would think, therefore, that a change in utility would result in a change in price.

Hence..don't use subjective factors in price (also please note I do have a degree in Economics.) as it gets messy unless you are going to do it across the board and say all magic items are 20% higher/lower than listed due to certain economic factors.

Well, this is where we agree. It is very difficult to mess with the crazy D&D economics without making it worse than it already is.

If this is a brand new item that's just discovered then sure, jack the price up to double due to there's only one guy that can make them and he knows it (for now at least). But that guy isn't going to go..hmmmm..i think this skill is worth more than that one. He's a wizard, not a market researcher.

Now, this is just silliness. If he's selling something professionally (particularly if it is magic and he is a high intelligence wizard), he's going to realize which skills are worth more. In fact, that is the BASIS of what you said above where you said the more useful things would get produced more. So you are contradicting yourself again.

Also, note that this is not a mass production society. People are not churning out magic items on production lines. they are mostly made to order or sold as part of someone's loot. Therefore, there are very limited economies of scale and much less reason why low demand would significantly reduce prices.

But after his technique gets out and more and more people start making them the price will come down to the listed price.

How is his "technique going to get out?" How are "more and more people going to start making them?" It is a magic item. If you are a wizard with the right feats and level, you can make it, other wise you cannot.

Now maybe after years of the books being on the open market some regions might have price despencies due to local factors (housing is more expensive in CA than MO for example) but it took decades for this trend to develop. But this isn't based on usefulness. Its based on regional supply and demand laws.

Huh? What, supply and demand LAWS are different for "regions" than for "campaign settings"? Supply and demand factors may be different in different local markets, but the laws are universal. It sounds like you are trying to use "economics degree speak" to cover up the fact that you are contradicting yourself again.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Trying to discuss D&D economy doesn't really work that well. As-is in the DMG and PHB, it's a pretty borked system.

However, there are at least certain constants. Using a previous example, a +6 Belt of Strength costs the same as a +6 Headband of Intellect. Obviously either one is only useful to certain people because that's just how those stats happen. Does its usefulness only to certain people change the price? No. Does the overall power of the stat change the price? No.

The same should be argued for skill-raising items. Not every skill is useful to everyone at any given time, just like the main stats. Heck, the DMG already spells out that each skill should be treated the same cost-wise since masterwork items are all 50gp to give a +2 circumstance bonus.

"Technique getting out" would be like a wizard peddling specific wares and others realize there's a market in that niche. Just because people can create an item doesn't mean they thought to make it, or thought it would turn a profit. There are also those that would go out and acquire feats and levels to create such items.

That last bit shows there are those who simply can't create that item. Furthermore, there is the possibility that a specific person can only create these items because they alone have the right spell. Wizards and other arcanists can create unique spells, then use those spells to craft things. If they don't spread the knowledge of how to acquire that spell then that shuts down the ability for a vast majority to create an item based on the spell. Only certain crafters who can mimic that can create it, such as a Warlock with Imbue Item.

Even if we assign different costs for different skills, that requires going through each skill and assigning the wanted cost. That's a lot of time spent to "balance" something that might not need balancing at all. It's also certainly not simple, and D&D benefits from keeping things simple.

Also, you guys are starting to raise your hackles over this mechanic. Tossing out insults does not lend itself to a proper discussion.

 

[kitcik]

I agree with the vast majority of this, but just a warning - don't take it too far. As usual, these things require DM (parental) supervision. If a player says "a ring of Evasion costs X so a ring of any other feat / class ability should cost X..." - remember you don't have to listen to them!

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Pretty much everything requires DM approval. It's assumed that the rules coming from these discussions have to be okayed first, but that doesn't prevent discussing them.

As far as Ring of X ability being the same as Y ability, I can see how we'd get to that point. That's when things would start crumbling because of the incredible power difference between abilities.

Yes there's a power difference between skills, but nothing like the differences between abilities. Single spells can be more powerful than abilities/features, and yet spellcasting is its own feature. Overall it's these features and abilities that make D&D. Base stats and skills are relatively minor in comparison to the impact on the game.

The best we could probably do with buying abilities is group them up. Ring of Mettle at the same price as Ring of Evasion for instance.