Boosting the bard=> full BAB; d8 hit die?

[Eremite]

When prestige classes were first introduced, one of the key concepts was that a roleplaying consideration should never be used to offset bonus abilities. I agree with that but, the more I look at the bard, the more I see a class that is 100% dependent on being roleplayed well to actually get any value out of it.

Anyway, the title contains my proposed solution. This would only bring him up to a ranger but I was wondering if anyone might have any comments.

 

[Crothian]

What do you want the Bard to do? This will only make him more combat oriented but then he'll loose his focus as a bard. If you think the Bard is weak yopu need to come up with abilities that will make him stronger as a Bard, not as a combat person.

 

[ForceUser]

IMC, I've given the bard a d8 HD, evasion at 10th level, improved evasion at 17th level, and more spells per day. Through long experience, my group has discovered that bards aren't fun to play as written in the PHB. They make great cohorts, they make great multiclass characters, but straight bards are sad. The class's marquee ability - bardsong - is largely passive, and their spellcasting is weak. Simply put, they need something fun to do in combat. So in my game, I buffed their HD, added evasion, and increased their spellcasting capacity. We'll see what this produces in the long run. Everyone who's ever played a bard in any of my group's campaigns has quit the class and moved on to something fun.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

I have never played a bard to high levels, but I have played one to 10th level and I had a great time. I debated multi-classing and PrCs but I just stuck with the bard and found it great. True, I enjoyed his character/personality, which included a reclusiveness to enter into combat which might have some sway in what I am saying here, but I saw no problem with him.

To me, a bard is a speaking-specialist. When it comes to gathering information and calming tempers, not even the thief can match that role. The spells, while not overly varied, are great to this end with boosting the right abilities or hiding lies or charming people.

One option you might consider is expanding the bard's spell list. Give him access to more melee/ranged buff spells to allow him to enter combat more often if he wishes. Increasing the hitdice and BAB, in some ways, would be just like giving him Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, and other assorted spells. I do know there are differences, especially in terms of one good Dispel Magic and they don't really help at higher levels. Nonetheless, I think it would be a better option that changing the BAB and Hit Dice (I prefer the subtle methods if possible).

 

[ForceUser]

Yes, but if you don't change the bard's spells per day, giving him an expanded spell list is only going to compound the frustration. Also, plainly, without changing the bard's HD you're keeping him in the back ranks. I don't believe a bard should necessarily be in the back ranks. Rogues have a d6, sure, but with sneak attack and other options available they have fun and interesting things to do in combat. A bard has little that is comparable. Their marquee ability relegates them to mundanity during initiative.

I agree that bards are awesome out of combat, in the right campaign. That is not in question. What is in question is that nebulous "fun factor" of playing a straight bard in combat. From watching multiple people play one over the last four years, my friends and I have concluded that in combat they are the least appealing class in the PHB. If you just want a knowledgable character that has many more options in combat, you play a wizard/loremaster or a cloistered cleric.

I want to put some oomph into the bard. I want people to enjoy them in combat. IMC I am essentially turning them into battle sorcerers who trade some spellcasting power for bardic music and knowledges.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

True, the bard, as written, generally needs to be in the right campaign (role-playing and plot intensive/driven).

In terms of your bard, I do think that once again depends on your campaign. If the campaign is role-play instensive, then I think giving the bard the increased HD and BAB is a little much in terms of balance with the other characters. Suddenly, he's shining in social encounters and while not quite shining like the fighter or barbarian, he certainly has a nice glint now in combat. I could perhaps seen one or the other (I could really understand the BAB since I think Paladins and Rangers both get decent abilities and spells that could compare to the Bards).

However, I think both in a campaign with a good amount of social interaction where the bard's skill points can shine is a bit much. In response, I'd remove two skill points from the skill list, especially if increasing both HD and BAB (again, I could see giving the Bard an increased BAB without penalty).

Of course, your campaign might be more combat instensive, in which case I fully understand and would agree with the shift to a singing battle-caster type.

 

[ForceUser]

My campaign has lots of roleplaying & intrigue, as well as lots of combat. And I'm okay with the bard character "glinting" in combat while also being knowledgable. Isn't that what the wizard does? The fact is that bards don't have a monopoly on social situations or good roleplaying, so I don't think that is a relevant factor when balancing how fun they should be in combat. Even a knuckleheaded fighter can be fun to roleplay.

My bottom line is that while all classes have strengths and weaknesses, every class should have something fun to do when initiative is rolled. Comparatively, bards don't.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

My campaign has lots of roleplaying & intrigue, as well as lots of combat. And I'm okay with the bard character "glinting" in combat while also being knowledgable. Isn't that what the wizard does? The fact is that bards don't have a monopoly on social situations or good roleplaying, so I don't think that is a relevant factor when balancing how fun they should be in combat. Even a knuckleheaded fighter can be fun to roleplay.

The bard is knowledgable, but is he social? Disregarding any house rules, the wizard is about as social as my dead aunt Edna. Using a general point spread, wizards generally care very little about Charisma either, insead relying on Intelligence, Constitution, and Dexterity the most (again, this definately does not always apply, but in terms of the most recommended builds I've seen). Is the wizard knowledgable? Yes. Is he social? Not usually.

That is where the bard more then makes up for it. Most bards I've seen are fairly intelligent (generally I see atleast a +1 modifier, if not a +2). This gives them plenty of skill points and their skills are undoubtedly centered on personal interaction. I don't think the bard shines as much in knowledge, even with his bardic knowledge ability, as he does with social interaction, persuasion, lying, and gathering information.

My bottom line is that while all classes have strengths and weaknesses, every class should have something fun to do when initiative is rolled. Comparatively, bards don't.

And I think here is where we really differ. For the most part, I don't think the Fighter has much of a real impact of anything to roll when the group is standing in front of a Duke, High Priest, or King. This doesn't go towards saying the fighter won't speak up or try to help if it comes to a Diplomacy roll. However, the fighter most likely knows to let the bard do all the talking.

I think its similar in combat. The bard's roll is support and held. He has access to healing magic and plenty of spells that, while it won't kill someone, it will at least hamper an opponent and perhaps temporarily take them out of action.

In this regard, I don't have a problem keeping the fighter shining on the battlefield and the bard shining in the castle. It is what each, I think, is meant to do.

 

[ForceUser]

I think you're missing my point. Based on years of playing 3x bards at this point, we've realized that it's not fun to play a bard in combat, regardless of the abilities the class currently has access to. Sure, their abilities are useful, but that doesn't make them fun to play. Do you understand what I mean?

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

True, I didn't understand what you were saying. But, again, I guess I just have a slightly different view on it.

I know in combat I had plenty of fun. I could probably count on my hands the number of enemies my bard killed in combat (whether through melee or ranged combat) over those 10 levels. But that didn't bother me. I didn't expect to go out killing people. It wasn't my perogative or my forte. So be it. I made sure to enjoy myself in other ways during combat...even if it was being away in town with a lady

As long as your bard has fun and the change doesn't upset your group, then go for it.