Boosting the bard=> full BAB; d8 hit die?

[Eremite]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Again, my basic problem with the bard as written is that its value to a campaign relies on it being RPed correctly. No other class is so dependent on the PLAYER'S RP ability... and thus no other class is so subject to DM whim.

I can easily see a "merry wanderer" with the same HD and BAB as a ranger and perhaps this would be enough to make the bard a viable PC choice in a campaign with even average amounts of combat. I suppose I am looking for the quickest possible fix rather than tinkering with all of the bardic abilities, spells etc....

 

[Li Shenron]

Strange, I haven't seen before people being bored at playing bards... and I don't get why the class needs serious roleplay to make it effective! The signature bardic abilities (music, knowledge, cha-based skills) CAN suggest interesting roleplay with them, but they don't require it really. Why do you think you need roleplay to make the class effective? :\

I understand that in combat they are not very good, but I don't expect them to be. Definitely they should not be on par with the fighting classes, and at the same time they surely are better than the two other arcane casters.

Compared with the other classes with intermediate BAB, in combat they are slightly worse than clerics (more because of the heavy armor rather than HD) and druids (because of the wild shape), slightly worse than rogue (sneak attack), slightly worse than monks (because of damage). On the other hand the bardic music is a very good ability in combat; it's common to think that since all the allies benefit from it, it sucks for the bard, but does it really? The only other advantage for the bard is a couple of martial weapons more than the others.

If you want to buff up the bard, I see no problems increasing the HD to d8 for a minor help in melee. I would not give him the full BAB however, really. Maybe I would suggest a few bonus feats to take only extra martial/exotic proficiencies (e.g. at level 5, 10, 15, 20) to represent the flexibility of the bard class in one more thing, this should definitely increase their combat use.

 

[SSquirrel]

I know in combat I had plenty of fun. I could probably count on my hands the number of enemies my bard killed in combat (whether through melee or ranged combat) over those 10 levels. But that didn't bother me.

I had a 3.0 Bard about 6 months after 3E came out. He was very interesting b/c he was able to back up the clerics healing, he waded into combat with a whip and a shortspear *trip trip trip!* and was very interesting. I ended up changing the character out for something else b/c our group makeup shifted and we needed a wizard in a major way. He had chances to perform and make money when we were back in town and he wasn't useless to the party. 3.5 the Bard is even better.

It's your game, make any changes you feel are needed.

Hagen

 

[Darklone]

I played several bards, mostly multiclassed (but most levels in bard). None of them was not pretty nifty in combats.

Friend of mine had a bbn1/brd5 with a glaive and str 18. Even though hit hitpoints were baaad, the DM canceled the group since he found no way how to even hurt the well-armored cleric standing in front of the damage dealing bard (1d10+19 damage at a +12 to hit at level 6... with the usual buffs, mostly from others).

 

[RuminDange]

As far as changing the Bard IMC after seeing several high level NPC bards (15+) that were traveling with the party being pretty much useless in and out of combat; I had many discussions with my players about it. I finally changed to Bard to boost them in ways that seemed right by my campaign.
No one took them seriously as a threat and I didn't what the bard overshadowing the players in RP situations so I didn’t boost or use their diplomacy skills. Besides I have a player playing a druid that could convince a dragon to give up its horde and its life to her due to her high diplomacy skill and she prefers non-combat solutions. Plus the big reason NO player really wanted to play them because they were useless their eyes.

First off I moved them back to between the Wizard and Sorcerer in regards to spell casting. They maintain song books (i.e. spell books), and each day they can spend an hour like any other spell caster to prepare their spells known list. From there they act as per normal. If they lose their book they are stuck with the last spell known list they prepared. It is not required to change their spells known. This way a Bard can prepare spells ahead of time if they know they are going to doing a performance or talking to nobles etc, or prepare their more combat oriented spells if they are down in a dungeon. This keeps them from being useless in one way or the other.

Second change is I gave them Evasion at 2nd and Improved Evasion at 10th.

Third change I did was to give a few bonus feats spread out starting at 6th level and every 6th levels thereafter.

Fourth change was to give them Skill Mastery at 14th.

The last and one of the most major changes I did was giving them ability to weave their spells and bardic music together to get greater effects. This ability allows them to use extra bardic music uses and more spell levels on the fly to most their spells effects. It is by the far the most complicated ability I gave them and can be very powerful when used by a high level bard to boost the effect of a spell in several ways. The effects can be added the same effects of a metamagic feat and/or boosting the DC by a set about, increasing the range, duration, damage/effect, targets and area by a certain percentage.

The changes all though can be seen as powerful and some might think too powerful, I only have one player playing a Bard currently, and it is only a secondly class at the moment (12th level overall: Rgr7/Bard2/Sor1/Bloodline2) Two other players have played bards since, but both characters ended up getting killed. One was a Half-Dragon that thought he could take on 2 Trolls by himself in melee combat after he ran away from the party on his own and they knew the trolls were out there. (He was like 5th level). The other was a Ranger/Bard/Wildsinger (30+ level made up to join an on-going side-trek of high level characters) that decided he could stand against 4 Stone giants Barbarian/Rangers in melee combat by himself while the rest of the group was fighting giants on another cliff side and used his movement to get within range for him to strike a full attack the next round but giving all four giants their full attacks that round.

So far in play the changes haven’t been over-powerful, but they can really make people take notice of a Bard and explain how some of them survive on their own traveling around in a very dangerous very magical world.

RD

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

If you're NOT using the Swashbuckler as a base class, I suggest that you look at that class, and steal some abilities of his to give to the bard.

AR

 

[Mr. Kaze]

So I'm 3 years into bards (mostly DMing but now also building) and here's what I've seen:

- A bard is generally a bit worse than an appropriately built rogue in social situations (as rogues have more skills to spend).
- A bard is much less likely to survive three fireballs than a rogue (as rogues have evasion to protect their little d6 HD).
- A point-buy built bard is going to have to sacrifice something more critical to their survival than a point-buy rogue, cleric, fighter, barbarian, or wizard. They're like paladins and monks that way.
- But for all of that, a bard is difficult to multiclass with -- especially at low levels -- because their uses of bardic music, their spellcasting, and their BAB are all going to crimp the usefulness of that 1st level of bard. Or, put another way, you multiclass to bard to get high ref and will saves and to be able to claim that you can cast arcane spells.

Possible solutions? With a goal to "Avoid needing to Multiclass..."
- A high-ref character needs something to help protect their sad little HD a bit better -- Evasion at level 5, Uncanny Dodge at level 10, Improved Evasion at level 15 and Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 20. I expect that adding those would make playing a bard straight through not nearly such a bad deal.
- For being such a social character, the bard is sadly outshone by the rogue's plethora of skills (many of which overlap), especially after spending skills on Perform for bardic music and adventurous skills like Jump and Tumble. Kick their skill points up by 2 to make them more competitive with the rogue -- and able to really build on their languages and knowledge abilities.

Still won't be a fighter, but there's no longer any significant advantage to multiclassing a bard over to rogue (which utterly cripples the low-level character in combat). Bard is still a support character that shines in town, but doesn't get readily snuffed out in the the dungeon.

For a fighting bard, try this on for size:
- A fighting spellcaster needs solid armor. Convert bards to Divine spellcasting (they've got Cure Light Wounds...) so that they won't take arcane spell failure penalties if they pick up heavier armor proficiencies.
- A fighter needs more HP. Upgrade them to d8, similar to the Cleric or Druid.

Now we've got a class with 2 high saves, d8 HD, and a 3/4s BAB which sounds just like a cleric. Add in a plethora of Bardic Music options that grow as time goes on (instead of more spells and domains) and enough skills to actually learn a goodly variety of stuff (instead of Turn/Rebuke Undead), and we've got a competitor. If the bard wants heavier armor or standard martial weapons, there are full BAB classes like Fighter and Barbarian that will readily augment that aspect of the character. Now just name them David, give them a background as a shepherd and let them be king of Israel at level 20.


That's my $.25
::Kaze

 

[Ahnehnois]

I think bards should get some bonus feats. No list. Anything they want.
This would makethem more "generalists" and I think it would fix a lot.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

I think bards should get some bonus feats. No list. Anything they want.
This would makethem more "generalists" and I think it would fix a lot.

This is one point I totally forgot to mention earlier in the discussion and something I've always felt (even if I forgot to mention...thanks Ahnehnois)...

...bards are not specialists. They are the jack of all trades with good skill points, decent BAB, and decent spellcasting (better, I think, then the paladin or the ranger in terms of diversity). If you give a bard bonus feats then you ought to definately give them that freedom to fully choose. If the bard wants to go combatant, then he can. If he wants to go another route, then so be it.

 

[Darklone]

Uhm, it's more a general idea ... but I always wanted to put all pure spellcasters on d6 HD (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid), all light armor dudes on d8 (monk, rogue, ranger, bard) and the rest on d10.

I didn't try it yet but I don't really think it would be soo bad.