Boosting the bard=> full BAB; d8 hit die?

[Evilhalfling]

For my next campaign I will be using the priestige bard from UA
a 15 lvl prestige class that adds 11 arcane caster levels to a previous class.
with a few changes
- Song feats from Eberron, including call of the grave(as turning) song of the heart (better bonuses from standard music) and lingering songs
- Bonus to bardic knowledge checks - to give a 20th lvl char with max bard levels a +20 to checks
- 2 bonus feats that must be either song feats, spell focus enchantment/illusion or skill focus.

Currently one player who tried a 3.5 bard retired after 2 sessions - In the first he was completely useless in combat and had limited RP interactions.
although he had fun in the second one liberally using inspire greatness.
He was a min/maxed diplomat/researcher 17-25 with appropriate skills, no direct combat skills whatsoever. He is still a valuable allied NPC

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, having said that, it does tend to be the case that bard spells are better on a level-by-level basis. At the low levels, they get some spells before their clerical or wizardly counterparts : they get Hideous Laughter a level before wizards and likewise with Suggestion; and Undetectable Alignment a level before clerics. Even at higher levels, spells which appear on both lists tend to be lower level for the bard: Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) and Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) being just some examples.

True it looks better, but the sorcerer gets new spell levels later, so

Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), (7th wizard, 8th Sor, 7th Bard)
Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), ditto
Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), (9th Wiz, 10th Sor, 10th Bard)
Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), ditto
Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) (11th Wiz, 12th Sor, 13th Bard)
Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) (15th Wiz, 16th Sor, 16th Bard)

so although a "lower level spell" it doesn't allow the bard to obtain it any earlier. In fact 4th -6th level spells are always later than the wizard getting the equivalent and 5th level spells are even later than the sorcerer!

Agreed that they get Tasha's a level earlier (2nd level) and suggestion a level earlier too (4th level); perhaps their spell list should have been designed to continue that progression... getting rid of those levels where they get no new spells at all and bringing in their first access to 3rd level spells at 6th, 4th level at 8th, 5th level at 10th and 6th level at 12th like the other casters.

Needs thought of course, but it might be worth consideration.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, having said that, it does tend to be the case that bard spells are better on a level-by-level basis. At the low levels, they get some spells before their clerical or wizardly counterparts : they get Hideous Laughter a level before wizards and likewise with Suggestion; and Undetectable Alignment a level before clerics. Even at higher levels, spells which appear on both lists tend to be lower level for the bard: Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) and Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) being just some examples.

True it looks better, but the sorcerer gets new spell levels later, so

Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), (7th wizard, 8th Sor, 7th Bard)
Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), ditto
Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), (9th Wiz, 10th Sor, 10th Bard)
Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), ditto
Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) (11th Wiz, 12th Sor, 13th Bard)
Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) (15th Wiz, 16th Sor, 16th Bard)

so although a "lower level spell" it doesn't allow the bard to obtain it any earlier. In fact 4th -6th level spells are always later than the wizard getting the equivalent and 5th level spells are even later than the sorcerer!

Agreed that they get Tasha's a level earlier (2nd level) and suggestion a level earlier too (4th level); perhaps their spell list should have been designed to continue that progression... getting rid of those levels where they get no new spells at all and bringing in their first access to 3rd level spells at 6th, 4th level at 8th, 5th level at 10th and 6th level at 12th like the other casters.

Needs thought of course, but it might be worth consideration.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, having said that, it does tend to be the case that bard spells are better on a level-by-level basis. At the low levels, they get some spells before their clerical or wizardly counterparts : they get Hideous Laughter a level before wizards and likewise with Suggestion; and Undetectable Alignment a level before clerics. Even at higher levels, spells which appear on both lists tend to be lower level for the bard: Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) and Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) being just some examples.

True it looks better, but the sorcerer gets new spell levels later, so

Confusion (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), (7th wizard, 8th Sor, 7th Bard)
Fear (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4), ditto
Dominate Person (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), (9th Wiz, 10th Sor, 10th Bard)
Hold Monster (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5), ditto
Greater Dispel Magic (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 6) (11th Wiz, 12th Sor, 13th Bard)
Irresistable Dance (Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8) (15th Wiz, 16th Sor, 16th Bard)

so although a "lower level spell" it doesn't allow the bard to obtain it any earlier. In fact 4th -6th level spells are always later than the wizard getting the equivalent and 5th level spells are even later than the sorcerer!

Agreed that they get Tasha's a level earlier (2nd level) and suggestion a level earlier too (4th level); perhaps their spell list should have been designed to continue that progression... getting rid of those levels where they get no new spells at all and bringing in their first access to 3rd level spells at 6th, 4th level at 8th, 5th level at 10th and 6th level at 12th like the other casters.

Needs thought of course, but it might be worth consideration.

 

[Eremite]

Which, however, isn't completely true with some PrC (and other concepts, like exalted stuff), since there are some that do this.

True... but I'm firmly of the opinion that anything out of the BoED (Book of Erroneous Design) shouldn't be used to support an argument!

Social skills do not have to be roleplayed, as a matter of fact, a simple die roll is enough. Really, you do not even have to talk in character to make use of the bard's abilities. Of course, then it's only half (or a much smaller fraction) of the fun!

There's an element of truth in that but reducing a social interaction to a die roll just makes it like combat without movement or tactics. I don't insist on speaking in character in social interactions; I do insist on a general outline of what will be said and how.

I really wonder, that you think it's obviously bad, that a class leans well to roleplaying. I'd rather say, that this is a good thing!

Actually, I think it's a great thing. I suppose I am just trying to find some ideas that would make this class more fun to play for the players in my groups past about 4th level (until then the combat bonuses make a huge difference).

Well, it makes no sense. Bards are no fighter-types.

Possibly... although I suppose I was looking at them as more swashbuckler-types.

Increasing the number of spells per day might be a viable solution, if you think a beef-up is needed.

Good point. Perhaps I could instead give them some bonus feats and daily action points? The latter would certainly make them much more "lucky".

 

[warlord]

Borrow from the wisdom of 2nd Edition give the Bard access to Mage spells.
Also their is a more combat oriented Bard in UA.

 

[stevelabny]

After my return to DMing, I've played through 3.4 (mostly 3.5 but not quite) through 14 levels. after we get to 20 and stop, I'm going to run another 20-level Eberron campaign.

Then I plan on using my homebrew world which has slowly been getting worked on all this time.

I think anyone who tells me that the bard isnt good at anything is missing the point. He's supposed to be the backup to everyone. As the backup arcane caster, healer,and rogue he has many chances to shine. Rogue needs a snoop buddy? Send the bard. Wizard or cleric down or unavialble? use the bard. Minor fight? Just stand back with your bow and sing. Major fight? Apply as necessary. Fight defensively to set up flanks with the rogue, Spellcast as necessary, and when the time is right, wade into combat for a round or two to help out. The bard IS supposed to be a jack of all trades.

That said, he doesnt have enough spells to buff himself for combat and assist the party often enough. My idea for fixing the bard which I havent even started to implement yet, was to slightly raise his spells per day. and to greatly enlarge his spell list. I even toyed with the idea of just letting the bard cast ANY spell, but that would probably have severe repercussions.
But to me, the tiny spells known list is the problem for the "jackofalltrades'
and enlarging that and slightly upping their spell slots per day is the solution