Booting a Player (and setting a good example?)

[Unwise]

The real question is have you talked to this person about this behavior and given them a chance to change, or even an ultimatum...

I am a non-confrontational person, so this is what I feel is right, but I think it is at best half true.

The fact is that the OP made a very good point. He has one afternoon while the wife is looking after the kids to play with friends. Why should he have to spend it with somebody he does not particularly gel with? Why should he have to spend it trying to deal with interpersonal drama? Trying to change a persons behaviours and attitudes is a lot of work. That is what some of us spend our 9-5 doing, I don't want to have to deal with that crap during my limited game time.

What does he owe the guy? Is gaming with some random guy for a few sessions enough to set up some fiduciary relationship in which the social contract demands that we spend time with them even if we find their behaviours annoying?

In the end, I personally would take the way of talking to him and trying to resolve it, but frankly I think that is due to a personality flaw on my part. A clear ability to confront people and cut them out of your life, without constructing social mores around it is enviable and would have saved me a lot of issues and time in life.

 

[Valetudo]

I say violence is the answer. Kick him in the jewels, then run away. Later, text him saying "You know what you did.". All problems solved. No need for thanks.

 

[Eltab]

I've been on the other side of the issue: I own Ye Olde Classic Version of one of the modules in Yawning Portal. When I figured out that this adventure might be that booklet, I went and looked. Then I read the entire module through. (Oops.) Coming in to play the next week, I realized that I was going to have to NOT be my usual boisterous take-charge self. Because I knew what was coming, where to find secret doors, the answer to the riddles, &c.

I compromised:
- I started searching every square foot of every surface for traps and secret doors. (Because "this is an Olde School Dungeon and that's how they were designed.")
- I let the others go first into new rooms, and ran in to help afterwards. Our group's favorite way to 'check doors for traps' is to kick them in and see if anything happens.
- I stayed almost completely silent when we were figuring out riddles. I did encourage the shy-er members to contribute ideas / suggestions / thoughts.

It also helped that my (20-year-old) car's wheels fell off* mid-dungeon exploration, so I missed several sessions while I attended to more important business.

* Not literally. But almost!

 

[Riley37]

More and more I find folks are afraid (yes, afraid, though specifically, afraid due to a lack of effective tools with which to use) of being perceived as being intolerant, not nice, the 'bad guy' in social situations, especially in small social groups.

Here's an excellent essay on dynamics among people who see themselves as targets of exclusion from "the mainstream". YMMV.

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

A DM/GM can, depending on context, tell players things such as "if you see someone cheating on Init rolls, you have my blessing to ask that player whether they made and declared an honest roll. Ask, and stop there, regardless of the answer; but you can ask, and their response will determine whether or not a larger conversation emerges." This could be a Session Zero topic, or a side topic, or a start-of-session announcement.

If the DM is also the host, then the DM can flat-out tell the misbehaving player that future invitations depend on how they handle that conversation. If the DM is not the host, then the DM can tell the host that her willingness to DM is at stake.

 

[Riley37]

I realized that I was going to have to NOT be my usual boisterous take-charge self.

I volunteer as an adult advisor in a teen program which teaches "know when to step up, and know when to step back" as one of the core principles. Sounds like you did just fine. Especially by encouraging shyer players; that is the next level, stepping back in ways which actively encourage others to step up.

 

[Riley37]

Kick him in the jewels, then run away.

Complication: if the DM is the host, and the DM runs away, then the DM has left the cheater in his house, unsupervised. If the DM returns, and the cheater has taken all of the DM's silver, gold, rubies and emeralds, then that's a high price for kicking the cheater in the jewels.

 

[Sunseeker]

While I generally suggest talking to him, I would advise in this situation that "talking" is more of an ultimatum.

It should go something like this: "Guy, the table is aware you are doing A & B, and A & B need to stop. Now. Some of the players have expressed concern over C, and we are not certain your character is a good fit for this party, we are looking for a much more party-focused individual. D is annoying and spoiling the work I do and the fun other players are trying to have, D needs to stop. If you wish to stay in this group, A, B and D need to change."

Don't give him some wishy-washy talk about how he's a good player and you want to see him succeed. This isn't high-school. This is college: he knows what it takes to succeed, he'll either do it, or he'll fail.

I'm iffy on how to address C. I understand what it's like to want characters to be party-focused, but I also understand that not every character can, or really even should be that (unless its some kind of requirement for the game). But a character who runs off to save their own butt when the rest of the party is left on the hook can really be a strain, especially if that person fills a vital combat role (like healing or defense). There are, IMO, better ways to be selfish: like saving the party's butt and then pressing them for a bigger share or "favors". It's not always fun to play with, but it can be sometimes.

But really, if the choice is between two good players and one bad player, the utilitarian answer is simple: boot the sucker.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Ack, lot's of perspectives to consider, and a flowchart!

I'm not sure why I'm second-guessing myself other than it's been awhile since I've booted someone. I really have been blessed with good gamers. Two of my gamers I've known for 15+ years, another has been at the table for 5+, and our most recent pal for 2 years. Others have become lifelong friends and their only issue is they just can't due to real-life make the game-day. Perhaps I'm just feeling nostalgia for them. I'll consult the chart...

But the commentary helps. I think it's reinforced that as much as I'd like to be, I'm not a rehab service. I have a luxury spot for a 5th player, but I can't compromise the game for my tried and true pals. It's rough love, but this has helped settle my decision.

Thanks all.

 

[MNblockhead]

Ack, lot's of perspectives to consider, and a flowchart!

I'm not sure why I'm second-guessing myself other than it's been awhile since I've booted someone. I really have been blessed with good gamers. Two of my gamers I've known for 15+ years, another has been at the table for 5+, and our most recent pal for 2 years. Others have become lifelong friends and their only issue is they just can't due to real-life make the game-day. Perhaps I'm just feeling nostalgia for them. I'll consult the chart...

But the commentary helps. I think it's reinforced that as much as I'd like to be, I'm not a rehab service. I have a luxury spot for a 5th player, but I can't compromise the game for my tried and true pals. It's rough love, but this has helped settle my decision.

Thanks all.

Normally, my advice would parrot those who advise to confront it like an adult. Talk to the person in private. Be calm, measured, respectful, but firm. Etc. Other have written about it better in this an other threads.

But I'm confused. It sounds like you have a great group of long-time friends. The guys aren't gelling. He's cheating. Why do you feel the need to make such an effort? It seems like he just isn't a good fit. Don't invite him back. Or do you need to interact with him often outside of game settings?

 

[Lanefan]

A is a table-level game-misconduct penalty, if proven. See ya.

B is a problem. If it's the whole campaign e.g. an entire AP then you'll probably have to toss him. If it's just one adventure and you're already partway through you could just live with it until the next adventure. In any case it's always a good idea to ask before using a module* if any of the players have been through it (or DMed it) before - and an answer here that later turns out to be dishonest is out-ya-go time.

* - suggest asking about several, including the one you're thinking of using, for disguise purposes.

C is a character-level problem that can be easily solved with a little good ol' in-character PvP. Guy's a coward? The other PCs can always throw him out of the party - or kill him and take his stuff - or force him to pay for the revival of any who died due to his cowardice.

D is the biggest headache. Only thing I can suggest here is changing up the mechanics, but that's just work for you. Otherwise, you might have to let him go. The saving grace is that you're obviously not his only game, so it's not like he won't be playing at all.

Lanefan