Boots of Speed/Spring Attack

[Corwin]

Re: Re: Spring Attack movement

This could not possibly been a hard thing to rule on. Sheesh, exactly when are you going to provoke an AoO for moving about within a threatened area when not moving? To state that you must move before or after the attack to no take the AoO from moving inside a threatened area is like saying.

To have a feat go off in a situation the feat was written about must happen.

Hehe. Great point. I can see it now...

The Sage recently rules that you do not gain the benefits of Weapon Focus: Longsword unless you are actually using a Longsword.

Revelations, indeed.

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Re: Spring Attack movement

This could not possibly been a hard thing to rule on. Sheesh, exactly when are you going to provoke an AoO for moving about within a threatened area when not moving? To state that you must move before or after the attack to no take the AoO from moving inside a threatened area is like saying.

To have a feat go off in a situation the feat was written about must happen.

C'mon now - the question is whether you MUST move BOTH before and after the attack or not. Reading the feat through, it seems that the intent is that you move, attack and move ("springing" in and out).

The Sage, however, ruled that you do not need to move BOTH before and after - a rather significant ruling, actually. The mere fact that perhaps you were thinking along the sames lines as the Sage in no way makes the ruling more obvious to those who were thinking that "moving in this way" meant BOTH before and after the attack.

The Sage's ruling seem to me to be wrong, in fact - that's how non-obvious this ruling is. It seems to me the feat states:

When you make a normal single attack + move action, you can move both before and after the attack with this feat - and if you do so, you gain the additional benefit of avoiding an AoO from the one you attacked.

I think that was the intent of this feat.

The Sage has ruled otherwise - but it was not the obvious choice at all..

 

[Katerek]

Wow.

I didn't think this would be so hottly debated. Now I will clarify my intent, and thanks by the way for all of the responses, it has been greatly appreciated.

Here is what was happening in my game.

My PC's, two or three of which have made boots of speed, were/are using their extra partial to move into base to base combat.

Then, they were taking a full attack action.

They were insistent that this was covered by spring attack, and that if the creature had reach, they were not proviking AoO.

I nixed that.

THEN

They were breaking up the partial action from the Boots of Speed, basically dividing the increments in half. Then they would take a full attack action, and then complete their hasted move to get out with Spring Attack.

It took me some time to catch on to what they were doing. I have eight players and rund heavy combats with multiple detailed NPC's, I was a tad distracted.

Now, I am almost certain that there is no way to break up the movement granted from a hasted action so as to make a full attack action in the middle.

When I called them on it on Sunday and made them quit, they got mad because that is the way it had always been done. Whatever.

My main goal is to find a hard fast rule so that we can stick by it. I told them that if they could do that, then by golly monsters and NPC's could too. Then they decided that it would be best if I could find a ruling.

HELP!

 

[Ristamar]

Wow.

I didn't think this would be so hottly debated. Now I will clarify my intent, and thanks by the way for all of the responses, it has been greatly appreciated.

Here is what was happening in my game.

My PC's, two or three of which have made boots of speed, were/are using their extra partial to move into base to base combat.

Then, they were taking a full attack action.

They were insistent that this was covered by spring attack, and that if the creature had reach, they were not proviking AoO.

I nixed that.

And you were correct to do so. The movement during Spring Attack must come as part of the same action. The partial action is a seperate action.

THEN

They were breaking up the partial action from the Boots of Speed, basically dividing the increments in half. Then they would take a full attack action, and then complete their hasted move to get out with Spring Attack.

It took me some time to catch on to what they were doing. I have eight players and rund heavy combats with multiple detailed NPC's, I was a tad distracted.

Now, I am almost certain that there is no way to break up the movement granted from a hasted action so as to make a full attack action in the middle.

Eh... I'm not even sure how they came up with that one. You can't 'break up' a partial action.

As the FAQ points out, you don't have to move before AND after a Spring Attack, but you must move either before OR after the attack. The attack comes during the movement of a standard action, so it is impossible to perform a full attack action while performing a Spring Attack, even while hasted.

 

[Artoomis]

My PC's, two or three of which have made boots of speed, were/are using their extra partial to move into base to base combat.

They were breaking up the partial action from the Boots of Speed, basically dividing the increments in half. Then they would take a full attack action, and then complete their hasted move to get out with Spring Attack.

For the first - nope - you can only use Spring Attack with BOTH a move and attack AT THE SAME TIME. Thus, a partial charge to close would work, but a move only would not.

For the second: Again, nope. There is only ONE WAY to take a Full Attack in combination with a Spring Attack and Haste. You have to:

(1) Partial Charge to close, with at least 10 feet of movement before the attack, movement must be in a straight line, and you must attack in the first square in which you threaten your opponent. You may then attack at the end of your charge.

(2) You may then execute a Full Attack.

The reverse order - Full Attack first - won't work because you can't attack and move with a partial action unless you can charge - and you can't charge when you are already next to your opponent.

There - that should do it, all in a neat and tidy package you can hand to your players.

 

[Artoomis]

As the FAQ points out, you don't have to move before AND after a Spring Attack, but you must move either before OR after the attack. The attack comes during the movement of a standard action, so it is impossible to perform a full attack action while performing a Spring Attack, even while hasted.

Wrong - see my post just above this one for how to do it.

 

[AGGEMAM]

What they should do instead is to partial charge then full attack, that would qualify for the spring attack.

EDIT: Darn, too late. Btw, Ristamar, it is not impossible, it just does not make difference, whether you use spring attack combined with full attack, or not.

 

[Artoomis]

As far as "breaking up" the partial action - I see the logic.

They were thinking:

1. You can nornally attack + move
2. Spring Attack lets you break the move into two parts.

Therefore, if in a Hasted round you can:

1. Full Attack + Move (partial action)
2. Spring Attack should let your break the move into two parts - taken before and after the Full Attack.

Of course, the logic is flawed, but I see where it came from. The flaw in the logic is that Full Attack + a Partial Action move is two actions - Spring Attack works with only one action - the Attack + Move Standard Action (and, per the Sage, charging).

 

[Ristamar]

Wrong - see my post just above this one for how to do it.

You're right. The partial charge. Forgot about that one.

Actually, I'm still technically right. You're using the Spring Attack on the partial charge, not the full attack. So what I said still holds true... though as Artoomis pointed out, there are ways to squeeze out a full attack after a Spring Attack.

 

[Artoomis]

You're right. The partial charge. Forgot about that one.

Thanks for being gracious.

As for the partial charge - it does come with a load of restrictions, and so is of limited value. Still, it may come in handy to pull off this trick to avoid that nasty dragons reach attack and kill him in one round (hey - it could happen!!). It just better work - because you end up really, really close to him.