D&D 3E/3.5 BoVD 3.5e: Hellbound!

[Nifft]

Hey there Lorax!

Nice cultist idea. I've got a few issues with the mechanics as presented, though:

1/ NOT a fan of Fiendish Template for free. It grants SR and DR and energy resistance ... it's worth the LA.

2/ I understand why you grant strong Will and Reflex saves, but IMHO it's not appropriate in this case. The designer of the Minotaur understood, too -- that's why they gave it Great Fortitude, to compensate for an inappropriate weakness. I'd require only Track and Demonic Thrall, and grant a strong Fort and Reflex save (like a Ranger).

3/ Earlier access! Traditional PrCs -- those aimed at PCs -- are meant to be stuff you look forward to when you're all advanced and ready to join an organization. These transformational PrCs shouldn't be too hard to get in to -- otherwise Baphomet's going to have a heck of a time recruiting! Blackguard is always there to fill up the higher levels.

4/ (or 1, continued) I'd separate out the parts of Fiendish that you want to grant the Vile Minotaur -- I'd suggest that Smite Good would be a nice addition to the Vile Minotaur, with the express bonus that the damage is doubled on a Powerful Charge. But I'd make sure you leave off all the SR and DR and [Extraplanar] and energy resistance stuff.

Thanks, -- N




PS: Here's what the Gnoll Cultist would look like translated. Do you think this would be a balanced Minotaur Cultist?

Minotaur Cultist of Baphomet

Requirements:
Type: Mammalian Humanoid
BAB: +2
Language: Abyssal
Skills: Survival 5+ ranks
Feats: Demonic Thrall, Track
Special: Must worship the Demon-Prince Baphomet and complete the Maze Ritual


Benefits
HD: d8
BAB: Full (as Fighter)
Good Save: Fortitude / Bad Saves: Reflex, Will
Skill Points: 2 + Int bonus
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str)

[u]Level   BAB   Fort	Ref	Will	Special Abilities[/u]
1	+1	+2	+2	+0	Maze Ritual, Horns, Natural Armor +1
2	+2	+3	+3	+0	Str +2, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision 60 ft.
3	+3	+3	+3	+1	Natural Armor +2, Sense of Direction
4	+4	+4	+4	+1	Str +2, Powerful Build
5	+5	+4	+4	+1	Natural Armor +3, Horned Charge
6	+6	+5	+5	+2	Con +2, Smite Good 1/day
7	+7	+5	+5	+2	Natural Armor +4, Scent
8	+8	+6	+6	+2	Large, Natural Cunning, Powerful Charge

Special Abilities:

• Maze Ritual: This ritual initiates the celebrant into the inner ring of Baphomet's cult. To perform the ritual, the celebrant must partake of a human (or demi-human) sacrifice, hunting and killing a victim within a maze while a [servitor of Baphomet] watches. The ritual costs the celebrant 4 points of Intelligence and 2 points of Charisma, and the celebrant gains the [Evil] and [Chaotic] descriptors. Furthermore, the celebrant's type changes to Monstrous Humanoid, and it becomes sterile. Finally, its visage becomes visibly beastial, and it can no longer be recognized as its original race.
• Ability Modification: These are treated as though gained through level advancement.
• Natural Armor (Ex): The character gains the indicated bonus in addition to whatever racial Natural Armor it had before becoming a Minotaur.
• Horns (Ex): The Minotaur gains a gore attack which deals 1d6 + (Str / 2) damage. This attack is treated as a secondary natural weapon. The character may no longer wear normal helms.
• Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Minotaur levels count as Barbarian levels for the purpose of the Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge class abilities.
• Darkvision (Ex): As the Darkvision ability.
• Sense of Direction (Ex): The Minotaur cannot become lost, even in a mundane maze.
• Powerful Build (Ex): The Minotaur is treated as Large when that would be to his advantage, such as when weilding Large weapons or when grappling. His Horns count as one size category larger (dealing 1d8 + (Str / 2)).
• Smite Good (Su): As the ability granted by the Fiendish template.
• Horned Charge (Ex): A minotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack at its full attack bonus which deals double damage, and adds Str (instead of Str / 2).
• Scent (Ex): As the scent special quality.
• Large (Ex): The Minotaur becomes Large (-1 AC & Attack, -4 Hide, etc.). He gains no ability increase, but he does occupy a 10 ft. square and gain 10 ft. reach. This ability supercedes the Powerful Build ability, as the character no longer has a choice about being treated as Large.
• Natural Cunning (Ex): The Minotaur's senses improve to preternatural proportions: he gains a +4 bonus on all Search, Spot and Listen checks, and he becomes immune to the maze spell.
• Powerful Charge (Ex): When charging, a Minotaur's gore attack deals triple damage -- 3d8 + (Str x 3) -- instead of double.

 

[the Lorax]

Hey there Lorax!

Nice cultist idea. I've got a few issues with the mechanics as presented, though:

Me too, but heck thats the point of discussion.

1/ NOT a fan of Fiendish Template for free. It grants SR and DR and energy resistance ... it's worth the LA.

I didn't like it either, but half-fiend was too much, and just turning into a minotaur wasn't vile enough.

2/ I understand why you grant strong Will and Reflex saves, but IMHO it's not appropriate in this case. The designer of the Minotaur understood, too -- that's why they gave it Great Fortitude, to compensate for an inappropriate weakness. I'd require only Track and Demonic Thrall, and grant a strong Fort and Reflex save (like a Ranger).

I was working backward from the base of a minotaur, I'm not tied to it - consider this one done.

3/ Earlier access! Traditional PrCs -- those aimed at PCs -- are meant to be stuff you look forward to when you're all advanced and ready to join an organization. These transformational PrCs shouldn't be too hard to get in to -- otherwise Baphomet's going to have a heck of a time recruiting! Blackguard is always there to fill up the higher levels.

Earlier access? Im not sure how much earlier than 5th you are thinking of, straight Ranger of any race will get you there by 5, as will many other combinations. Removing the Great Fortitude will make it even easier to get into.

4/ (or 1, continued) I'd separate out the parts of Fiendish that you want to grant the Vile Minotaur -- I'd suggest that Smite Good would be a nice addition to the Vile Minotaur, with the express bonus that the damage is doubled on a Powerful Charge. But I'd make sure you leave off all the SR and DR and [Extraplanar] and energy resistance stuff.

The Smite I like, but as a 1/day ability it may be too little. Perhaps Teifling-like resistances...

 

[Nifft]

Earlier access? Im not sure how much earlier than 5th you are thinking of, straight Ranger of any race will get you there by 5, as will many other combinations. Removing the Great Fortitude will make it even easier to get into.

Well, I'm thinking that two levels of Warrior or Barbarian could do it for a Human... when you consider that these are people willingly transforming themselves into monstrous creatures cast in the image of a Demon, that's pretty Vile already.

(Much of the point of these transformational PrCs is to allow a DM to run a human-centric campaign, yet include some familiar critters, but with a more logical explanation as to why they exist. In my opinion, a world that evolved 144 different sentient humanoids is just stupid, and breaks my suspension of disbelief. So, they're for a setting that doesn't have demi-humans and monstrous humanoid races. In context, I expect them to be horrifying, even without extra Fiendish-ness. Does that make sense?)

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Lorax]

Well, I'm thinking that two levels of Warrior or Barbarian could do it for a Human... when you consider that these are people willingly transforming themselves into monstrous creatures cast in the image of a Demon, that's pretty Vile already.

(Much of the point of these transformational PrCs is to allow a DM to run a human-centric campaign, yet include some familiar critters, but with a more logical explanation as to why they exist. In my opinion, a world that evolved 144 different sentient humanoids is just stupid, and breaks my suspension of disbelief. So, they're for a setting that doesn't have demi-humans and monstrous humanoid races. In context, I expect them to be horrifying, even without extra Fiendish-ness. Does that make sense?)

Cheers, -- N

Gotcha.
I'm fairly reluctant to lower the requirements to something that could be entered before the 4th level (Such as three levels of very dedicated Barbarian or Ranger then into cultist). A class that only requires a character to take 1 or 2 levels before getting into shoud probably be tweaked into a Base Class (and for the most part I'm not a big fan of new base classes unless they add something new, like the Worlock did). My concept is that these guys ARE the original minotaurs of the world, and common Monster Manual minotaurs are their spawn. Lemme filter in some of the Fiendish stuff, and modify the requirements, in fact, take a look above!

 

[Lord Morte]

Very cool, nifft. I'm going get some usage out of the Thrall of Orcus PrC, seeing as my party has to storm a demiplane of Orcus-worshipers serving a lich queen. Plus I've just had a truly evil idea concerning the Disciple of Asmodeus and a certain elven king

Request: Thrall of Demogorgon?

 

[Nifft]

My concept is that these guys ARE the original minotaurs of the world, and common Monster Manual minotaurs are their spawn. Lemme filter in some of the Fiendish stuff, and modify the requirements, in fact, take a look above!

Certainly interesting!

It's not suitable for my campaign -- I prefer that my setting's hideous deformed demon-spawn be sterile, and thus recruit vigorously -- but I can certainly see the value in your version for a different setting.

About base class vs. PrC -- well, many of the "racial" PrCs that I write are more like Monte Cook & WotC's "Paragon" classes. They're much shorter than Base clases, but not as "advanced" as PrCs.


Lord Morte: Demogorgon, huh. He's a toughie. Well, I've got an idea or two... hmm.

-- N

 

[the Lorax]

Even at 3 levels and in it is easy to get into. I for my game, this can really serve as a vile version of the original greek minotaur myth. For your game, make 'em sterile, and have their target audience be similar to the Gnoll Cultists - creating the traditional Gnoll/Minotaur rivalry!

Lord Morte: Demogorgon, huh. He's a toughie. Well, I've got an idea or two... hmm.

hehe, I was almost thinking that Demogorgon should have 2 different Thrall types, one for Aameul, and another for Hethradiah.

 

[yennico]

I like these prcs.
Sadly I do not own BoVD, yet. Now I think I must buy it.

Without reading the BoVD here is my rogue/cleric prc:
devil´s fist.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Demogorgon, huh. He's a toughie. Well, I've got an idea or two... hmm.

-- N

Heya Nifft - My PCs have been ticking off Demogorgon of late, did you ever flesh this out?
(they killed an Aboleth that I had intended as a BBEG mastermind, then later destroyed a shrine built by a intelligent ape, killing the ape as well.)

 

[Nifft]

Gimmie a little bit... the ideas have crystalized, now I just need to type them out & check for balance.

-- N