BoVD: Babau - CR7???

[Scupper]

If you mean you should have a backup, I agree. What I meant was that carrying nonmagical weapons because you might not want to fight monsters with your magical ones, to me, is laughable. It's contrary to virtually all heroic fiction. When did Aragorn say "Oop, better not use Anduril, this balrog's heat might melt it and then I'd be SOL. I'll just whip out my spare normal sword so Gandalf can buff it instead."?

There shouldn't even be a chance that a (supposedly) low CR creature like a babau can melt a holy avenger, but it is in fact a very real chance. It is an ability well out of proportion to the power of the creature, and a typical poorly-designed mechanic. Even if you toss heroic fiction comparisons aside, an ill-informed strike costing a character tens of thousands of gp worth of equipment is unbalancing to the game, IMO.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

No offense. If two babau are ripping your 10th lvl party to shreds then I'd question your party's tactics. I remember someone posting nearly the same thing like 6 months ago and I'll give you the same response: they aren't that tough if you remember what you are dealing with. If run properly they are irritating foes, that much is true, but a 10th lvl party should be handling them with ease, especially if there are only two of them. Admittedly, I used to run a Planescape game in 2e so I am well familiar with babau.

In the Birthright game I play in we ran into 5 of them who used hit-and-run tactics. My paladin/cleric always keeps a spare mace in his bag of holding and a GMW wand for just such emergencies (and to deal with Clay Golems). We just cast GMW on spare ordinary weapons we had and went after them.

The one important thing to remember when dealing with them is they don't have all that many HP. Don't attack them with slashing/piercing weapons, all that does is inflate their effective HP and give them more time to use their gaze and special attacks on you and force you to take more swings with your weapon and risk more saves vs. its acid. Also, concentrate on one at a time to thin their numbers quickly.

Tzarevitch

The only thing laughable is how your entire set of comments here is based around perfect META knowledge of your foes.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

The only thing laughable is how your entire set of comments here is based around perfect META knowledge of your foes.

It is not META knowledge. It is called experienced and/or Knowledgeable PCs. If you have some form of bardic knowledge, or have someone who has enough sense to take some ranks in Knowledge (Planes) then they HAVE reason to know what babau can do. Their capabilities are hardly a secret, they are pretty common in tanar'ri heirarchies. There are also spells that can precisely ID foes' capabilities and weaknesses. Most of these spells fit in wands. There are also more than enough creatures in 3e than are either immune to certain weapons or can destroy them that it is foolish to not carry backup weapons.

PCs' failure to bother to try to ID their foes and figure out what they do early in the engagement and failure to plan properly is not a reason to claim that the babau's CR is too low. Personally I think CR7 for the babau might be a step too low but a 10th lvl party has no excuse for getting their tails kicked by only 2 of them. That is simply bad tactics and a failure to plan for potential adverse conditions. Babau simply aren't nearly that tough.

Tzarevitch

 

[Scupper]

I'll stand by the estimate of a strong CR9, based on my calculation above.

I'll also accept Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Demons), and Bardic Knowledge could all give the PCs some idea of Babaus' abilities. I'm not going to metagame to the point that if a character makes a Bardic Knowledge roll I hand him the statblock, however.

They did, in fact, realize what the acid did to weapons before losing anything particularly valuable (just one magic sword). They also knew in advance that they would likely encounter tanar'ri and what their universal immunities and resistances were.

Casting spells to find out their vulnerabilities I am skeptical about. This was not a "here they come" situation so much as a "here they are" battle. When the fighter steps in and vaporizes a +1 holy longsword on a babau's back, it does cause some last-minute rethinking of tactics.

Babau are far from common in non-Planescape campaigns. They aren't even common among tanar'ri. If they were, they'd be in the MM. I'd expect a basher from Sigil to know the chant on a babau's abilities, but even a tough Prime is like to get put in the dead book by these things.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

It is not META knowledge. It is called experienced and/or Knowledgeable PCs. If you have some form of bardic knowledge, or have someone who has enough sense to take some ranks in Knowledge (Planes) then they HAVE reason to know what babau can do. Their capabilities are hardly a secret, they are pretty common in tanar'ri heirarchies. There are also spells that can precisely ID foes' capabilities and weaknesses. Most of these spells fit in wands. There are also more than enough creatures in 3e than are either immune to certain weapons or can destroy them that it is foolish to not carry backup weapons.

PCs' failure to bother to try to ID their foes and figure out what they do early in the engagement and failure to plan properly is not a reason to claim that the babau's CR is too low. Personally I think CR7 for the babau might be a step too low but a 10th lvl party has no excuse for getting their tails kicked by only 2 of them. That is simply bad tactics and a failure to plan for potential adverse conditions. Babau simply aren't nearly that tough.

Tzarevitch

A foe should be its CR the FIRST time you encounter it. Not later once you have learned all of its abilities.

There is zero indication that a 7th or even an 8th level party will defeat one of these with only a 20% loss of party power.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

A foe should be its CR the FIRST time you encounter it. Not later once you have learned all of its abilities.

There is zero indication that a 7th or even an 8th level party will defeat one of these with only a 20% loss of party power.

Actually, CR is for for EACH time you encounter it not just the first. And as I said, I do agree that the CR may be slightly low (perhaps 8 or 9 would be more accurate) because that acid slime will probably cause some difficulties the first time you engage them, but a 10th level party should not be getting waxed by two of them. They simply aren't THAT tough.

Tzarevitch

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

Actually, CR is for for EACH time you encounter it not just the first. And as I said, I do agree that the CR may be slightly low (perhaps 8 or 9 would be more accurate) because that acid slime will probably cause some difficulties the first time you engage them, but a 10th level party should not be getting waxed by two of them. They simply aren't THAT tough.

Tzarevitch

You sure make lots of assumptions. Even a 10th level party can have trouble from a pair of this the first time.

1. First round you could easily have the two main melee guys lose their primary weapon.

2. You are assuming the party has GMW memorized. (btw If that spell is ALWAYS mem'd then its obviously too good for its level and should be bumped up a level)

 

[Zenon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

You sure make lots of assumptions. Even a 10th level party can have trouble from a pair of this the first time.

1. First round you could easily have the two main melee guys lose their primary weapon.

2. You are assuming the party has GMW memorized. (btw If that spell is ALWAYS mem'd then its obviously too good for its level and should be bumped up a level)

Doc, you're making even wilder assumptions in your post.

1) Players go in initiative order. If one of them has a sword melted, do you think the others are going to go "let me try mine too"? At best maybe one weapon damaged/destroyed before the PC's see the creatrues power.

2) If almost every mage/sorcerer has Magic Missile and Shield memorized, does this make them "too good for their level" too?

 

[Tzarevitch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BoVD: Babau - CR7???

You sure make lots of assumptions. Even a 10th level party can have trouble from a pair of this the first time.

1. First round you could easily have the two main melee guys lose their primary weapon.

2. You are assuming the party has GMW memorized. (btw If that spell is ALWAYS mem'd then its obviously too good for its level and should be bumped up a level)

Memorize GMW? We never memorize GMW. There is this wonderful fewfangled invention called a "wand" which allows you to not have to keep memorizing spells that don't normally see that much use.

As I said, the problem with the sample group of 10th lvl PCs who were getting waxed by 2 babau is that they weren't prepared. Even if the primary fighters lost their primary weapons, what about backup weapons? The babau's DR is pathetic. Any magic weapon can breach it. If the fighters didn't have a backup magic weapon and noone had GMW that is just plain poor preparation, especially for a 10th level party. Melee types also have no excuse for not carrying at least 1 blunt weapon in addition to the normal slashing weapon. There are more than enough creatures in 3e that are immune to one type or another that it is just plain foolish not to.

List of wands with utility spells that no party should be without:
Cure light wounds (cast at 1st level)
Greater Magic Weapon (the higher the caster the better)
Dispel Magic (the higher the caster the better)
Delay Poison
Neutralize Poison
Restoration
Dimensional Anchor
Bull Str
Cat's Grace
Endurance

Wands are very cheap, easy to make and fairly readily accessible. Even the fighters in our group invest money in wands so that when they want a spell cast on them, they can just "loan" the caster the wand and the caster isn't out a spell slot.

All this said. I will say again that the babau didn't defeat that party, poor preparation did. They are in my opinion CRed a bit too low but a 10th level party should not be loosing to two of them.

Tzarevitch