[BoVD] Vile Damage...

[Celtavian]

I have some questions concerning Vile damage.

Does vile damage affect evil creatures?

If so, how do evil creatures heal vile damage since they cannot cast consecrate or hallow?

Seems kind of unbalanced. I am leaning towards ruling vile damage only affects non-evil characters and creatures like exalted damage only affects evil creatures.

Currently, we are playing evil characters. One of the people is using Violate Spell which causes half the damage from a single spell to be vile. We are mostly fighting other evil enemies at the moment. I just looked up vile damage. Monte doesn't seem to have taken into account evil people when it comes to vile damage. An evil person can literally not heal vile damage if they somehow suffer it. Monte is usually thorough, so I'm wondering if I am missnig something.

Vile damage seems worse for evil characters and creatures than good characters and creatures. That doesn't seem right. I can't imagine being able to heal vile damage by using a desecrate or unhallow.

 

[Selah]

I have some questions concerning Vile damage.

Does vile damage affect evil creatures?

Nothing I've heard indicates that it doesn't.

If so, how do evil creatures heal vile damage since they cannot cast consecrate or hallow?

Good question. I suppose that an evil cleric or wizard could still use miracle or wish to duplicate the spell's effect...although as an evil cleric, I don't know how I'd feel about asking for a hallow effect...Or contact an ur-Priest to cast it, since I seem to recall that they can get access to any spell, regardless of alignment issues.

Seems kind of unbalanced. I am leaning towards ruling vile damage only affects non-evil characters and creatures like exalted damage only affects evil creatures.

In the campaign you've described, it certainly does sound unbalanced. But take it a step further: what of CN or LN or N creatures? Do they have access to hallow or consecrate? The same issue may apply there as well.

Currently, we are playing evil characters. One of the people is using Violate Spell which causes half the damage from a single spell to be vile. We are mostly fighting other evil enemies at the moment. I just looked up vile damage. Monte doesn't seem to have taken into account evil people when it comes to vile damage. An evil person can literally not heal vile damage if they somehow suffer it. Monte is usually thorough, so I'm wondering if I am missnig something.

I don't think you are, unless there has been some errata or something...

Vile damage seems worse for evil characters and creatures than good characters and creatures. That doesn't seem right. I can't imagine being able to heal vile damage by using a desecrate or unhallow.

Neither can I. Perhaps a whole new spell just for the purpose of evil creatures trying to heal vile damage? I think that Vile damage should still affect evil creatures, so I'd be looking for some other alternative to your suggested house rule.

 

[Pax]

Simply allow a Desecrate or Unhallow spell to allow the healing of Vile damage magically, if the person being healed is of evil alignment and/or if the spell is being cast by a cleric of an evil deity.

 

[Celtavian]

Nothing I've heard indicates that it doesn't.

Poor showing by Monte IMO. He should have thought this out and given some means for evil to heal vile damage.

Good question. I suppose that an evil cleric or wizard could still use miracle or wish to duplicate the spell's effect...although as an evil cleric, I don't know how I'd feel about asking for a hallow effect...Or contact an ur-Priest to cast it, since I seem to recall that they can get access to any spell, regardless of alignment issues.

You're kidding right? You have to be a minimum of 17th level to cast such a spell. You're going to take vile damage many times before you are able to cast this spell. You're hit points will be permanently reduced until you reach 17th level? No way.

In the campaign you've described, it certainly does sound unbalanced. But take it a step further: what of CN or LN or N creatures? Do they have access to hallow or consecrate? The same issue may apply there as well.

Neutral people can cast Hallow or Consecrate as long as they dont' worship evil gods.

I don't think you are, unless there has been some errata or something...

Once again, Monte should have planned for evil to be able to heal vile damage. A very poor showing on his part to make vile damage hurt already vile people and then have it so they can't even heal the damage. Book of Exalted Deeds is much better balanced than the Book of Vile Darkness.

Neither can I. Perhaps a whole new spell just for the purpose of evil creatures trying to heal vile damage? I think that Vile damage should still affect evil creatures, so I'd be looking for some other alternative to your suggested house rule.

I'm just going to balance vile damage myself , since Monte didn't see fit to do so. It will not damage evil creatures, but will still damage neutral creatures. Just by being able to damage neutral creatures still makes vile damage better than than exalted damage which only damages evil creatures.

Evil people are already vile. Why vile damage should affect someone who has already violated themselves is beyond me. Monte just didn't think through the possible ways that people would use (or should I say abuse) his Book of Vile Darkness.

 

[Celtavian]

Simply allow a Desecrate or Unhallow spell to allow the healing of Vile damage magically, if the person being healed is of evil alignment and/or if the spell is being cast by a cleric of an evil deity.

Doing it this way would be counterintuitive. Using a spell that fills an area with additional evil energies like Desecrate or Unhallow to heal basically evil damage doesn't seem right. Does it really seem right to you?

 

[Pax]

"Like calls to like; with enough evil in the area (i.e., in a desecrate or unhallow spell's effects), an evil cleric can use an inflict wounds spell to draw the Vile essence out of the character, and into the area itself - one point of vile damage per level of the inflict spell. The desecrate or unhallow spell then becomes more resistant to dispelling - for every four points of Vile damage, or fraction thereof, the DC to dispell the desecrate or unhallow spell increases by +1. All vile damage accumulated in a given area dissipates after 48 hours have passed. The area only gains these Vile points, if the 'donor' survives the 'extraction' - if they die from the inflict damage, no Vile damage points are extracted."

There, there's your in-game explanation. ^_^ And even an added motivation for evil, nasty BBEG clerics to torture prisoners, underlings, themselves, and so on ... then heal even the Vile damage: accumulate and maintain added dispel resistance for the evil temple's unhallow. ^_^ Plus, if you're evil (and can't sucker a good cleric into healing you), it HURTS to get rid of Vile damage.

 

[Celtavian]

re

"Like calls to like; with enough evil in the area (i.e., in a desecrate or unhallow spell's effects), an evil cleric can use an inflict wounds spell to draw the Vile essence out of the character, and into the area itself - one point of vile damage per level of the inflict spell. The desecrate or unhallow spell then becomes more resistant to dispelling - for every four points of Vile damage, or fraction thereof, the DC to dispell the desecrate or unhallow spell increases by +1. All vile damage accumulated in a given area dissipates after 48 hours have passed. The area only gains these Vile points, if the 'donor' survives the 'extraction' - if they die from the inflict damage, no Vile damage points are extracted."

There, there's your in-game explanation. ^_^ And even an added motivation for evil, nasty BBEG clerics to torture prisoners, underlings, themselves, and so on ... then heal even the Vile damage: accumulate and maintain added dispel resistance for the evil temple's unhallow. ^_^ Plus, if you're evil (and can't sucker a good cleric into healing you), it HURTS to get rid of Vile damage.

Great idea if your DMing evil creatures against a good or neutral party and you want some flavor, asking to die if your playing an evil party and want to keep the campaign going. It is my intention to balance vile damage for play with a group of evil PC's so they can survive.

You don't seem to grasp how very bad this is from both a DM and PC perspective for a party of evil PC's. I hate it as a DM when I have to use something against the PC's to make my point.

You list no compelling reason why vile damage affects evil characters and creatures, neither did Monte. Seems to me Monte just wanted to throw some kind of damage in that was worse than any kind imaginable and that affected everyone without regard to alignment. So evil that it's more evil than evil is the feel I get.

Are you bothering to consider this in terms of playing a group of evil PC's fighting mostly evil PC's? It's pretty bad. One of the PC's has Violate Spell with Fireball and is a Thrall of Graz'zt. She is totally optimized for dealing tremendous amounts of vile damage to a large group of creatures and to my knowledge there is no way to resist this damage.

If vile damage was allowed as is, then that would lead to an overwhelming advantage in the PC's favor unless the same ruthless tactics were used agaisnt them. I know the PC's would be pissed if they were hit by vile damage they could not heal and then destroyed by the encounter.

Seems heavily imbalanced. Where as a good party could simply cast a Consecrate centered on the Cleric and have him move about and heal (making vile damage perfectly balanced and reasonable), and evil party is going to have an extremly difficult time dealing with vile damage. Basically, the Book of Vile Darkness, for all the complaining from moral pundits, makes it harder to play evil PC's rather than easier.

Running an evil party while allowing vile damage to work as is makes a TPK a question of when and not if. I would prefer to run a long term campaign with evil PC's.

 

[Kalanyr]

I'm not thinking this is balanced since exalted damage is +1d4 to evil creatures (FEAR IT), its barely comparable to vile damage in power (which negates regeneration and fast healing @_@).

I don't think Vile Damage was ever a good idea, who needs Wish when you just vile damage the tarrasque to death.

 

[Pax]

Running an evil party while allowing vile damage to work as is makes a TPK a question of when and not if. I would prefer to run a long term campaign with evil PC's.

Is there no cleric of an evil deity in the party? Could he not simply prepare a Desecration, and then use a few Inflicts (followed AND preceded by curative spells), to remove the Vile damage as I have outlined above?

The idea is, for EVIL clerics, the healing of vile damage would involve some PAIN, and a small degree of risk as well.

 

[Kesh]

Monte answered this on his own boards here. Essentially, yes, it was designed this way. Vile damage affects evil creatures, and they have to seek out a hallowed place to heal it. Makes the Blood War (demons vs. devils) a lot nastier, eh?