[BoVD]Well, since I can't seem to post this on Wizards forums...

[SemperJase]

You keep talking like these products advocate playing villains, which they patently do not do (disclaimer: this is inargueable from Dragon 300 and I'm trusting Monte when he says he doesn't overly encourage it in the BoVD).

Please stop setting up unnecessarily steep cliffs to throw your tied and helpless victims over, 'k?

I suppose you mean that it is inargueable that Dragon 300 does encourage people to play evil characters.
If Monte Cook says that he does not encourage people to do so, he is contradicting his own article. Read the side bar. It clearly encourages PCs to use feats from the BoVD.

In addition another article, The Risen Dead, encourages players to take prestige classes that have evil alignments.

Pg. 71 "a player character with a template is little different from any other character, and anyone reading this is ready for the challenges they present.

Pg. 73 (Creating a mummy)
"Alignment: Always lawful evil"

Pg. 76 (Wight)
"Alignment: Usually evil"

Pg. 77 (Wraiths)
"Alignment: Always evil"
My argument is based on what the author of BoVD and Dragon Magazine in general states. There is no inference here. That is not a strawman argument.

 

[alsih2o]

are you sure you aren't confusing encouragement with explaining possibilities there sj?

possibility: you could jump off that cliff

encouragement: you should jump off that cliff

 

[SemperJase]

That is not true. You clearly intimated that someone who plays a rapist is not trustworthy to not be a rapist.

I still believe that. Now, does D&D create those fantasies? I doubt it. But the game can be used as a vehicle to promote this behavior.

My position is that it is not healthy to encourage those fantasies. D&D can be positive or negative. I encourage people to use it for positive social interaction.

I would make it a policy to avoid a person who sought to actively act out evil fantasies. I am much more comfortable being around people who act out behavior that is socially beneficial.

 

[SemperJase]

are you sure you aren't confusing encouragement with explaining possibilities there sj?

Yes. A couple issues ago the theme was paladins. I didn't see any statement in the issue that says you should play paladins. Clearly the information was presented so it could be incorporated into the readers' campaigns.

Dragon 300 had choices to make, either they could made no statement about the material's use, they could have said the material should be used for NPC's only, or they could have said that the material can is appropriate for PCs (that is encouragement). As I sited above, they chose the latter.

 

[alsih2o]

I would make it a policy to avoid a person who sought to actively act out evil fantasies.

but you sit around chatting with us anyway.....


(it was joke, i think sj knows it )

 

[alsih2o]

Clearly the information was presented so it could be incorporated into the readers' campaigns.

Dragon 300 had choices to make, either they could made no statement about the material's use, they could have said the material should be used for NPC's only, or they could have said that the material can is appropriate for PCs (that is encouragement). As I sited above, they chose the latter.

again, could, not should.

 

[barsoomcore]

My position is that it is not healthy to encourage those fantasies. D&D can be positive or negative. I encourage people to use it for positive social interaction.

Does this mean you're simply rejecting my points about exploration, seeking out one's own answers rather than blindly "practicing" the strictures provided, and the notion that risk is an essential part of learning? Are you just going to ignore these arguments without providing any sort of counter? If so, then I guess my work here is done. The incorrectness of your position has been clearly demonstrated, and you're offering nothing to demonstrate otherwise.

I put it to you again: We agree that there is a degree of risk associated with the exploration of "negative" behaviour. We disagree on the level of risk, as well as the potential for gain.

Is it your position that exploring negative behaviour is devoid of value, OR are you concerned that the level of risk is too high in exchange for the potential gain? Different concepts, you see. If you feel there is no value in exploring negative behaviour, then it becomes difficult to communicate -- this is so alien a notion to me (and I think to Western culture generally) that it's difficult for me to come to terms with. If on the other hand you feel that the risk is too high to justify the potential gain, well then, we can begin a discussion on just what the gains might be, and why we rate the risk as we do.

And from that discussion, I think, we might learn things.

 

[SemperJase]

again, could, not should.

That is encouragement. The magazine inidates it is appropriate to use it. Encouraging someone to do somthing indicates they have a choice whether to do it or not (i.e. they could).

I will grant you the magazine does not say people should do that. Just as it did not say that everyone SHOULD play a Paladin. It still encouraged people to play paladins should they decide to do so. Dragon 300 encourages people to play evil characters should they wish to do so.

My stand is principled that people should not play evil characters. I am encouraging them to play good characters to encourage positive social behavior.

 

[SemperJase]

Does this mean you're simply rejecting my points about exploration, seeking out one's own answers rather than blindly "practicing" the strictures provided, and the notion that risk is an essential part of learning?

Yes. It is self evident that murder and rape are evil without the need to act them out in fantasy.

 

[herald]

Yes. It is self evident that murder and rape are evil without the need to act them out in fantasy.

Define act them out.


Are you saying that no fantasy story should contain such elements?

After all, it is implied in D&D that such things do go on with regular frequency.

It's doubtful that Human women are lining up to meet available Orcish Men, marry them and breed with them.

And yet we know that there are plenty of Half-Orcs in the game worlds.

Murder is part and parsel of D&D. You can't remove it. characters that decend into Kobold Lairs are no less guilty than any other kind of killer.