Flexor the Mighty!
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Keep fighting the good fight SJ! Never let them get you down.
[BoVD]Well, since I can't seem to post this on Wizards forums...
- Thread starter Son_of_Thunder
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alsih2o
First Post
SemperJase said:
did your party try anything but the slaying?
show of force? negotiations and explanantions thru and interpreter? stealth?
or was it just the nice and easy morally correct slaughter?
i just feel the need to point out that this crosses the line from "eye for an eye" to "head for an eye", and makes me wander what types of crimes aren't capital offenses without trial.
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Steve Conan Trustrum
Explorer
Ummm, quick point: if playing evil characters is inherently wrong and leads to a degredation of morals, doesn't that mean that all DMs should be psychotics, forthing at the mouths and running through the streets, killing people with grapefruit spoons? I mean, a DM role-plays mainly evil characters and, if he is a skilled DM, he does them in an interesting and invovled manner. As someone who has been DM'ing constantly for about 99% of my gaming experiences in the past 18 years, doesn't that mean I should be plotting the best way to kill you all?
For those who say there is no solid evidence concerning the relation between the alignment of the characters you play and the morals you define for yourself, I say look to your DMs for all the imperical evidence you could ever need. Seems to me that the obvious answer is: "no, playing evil characters does not make you evil." Or, am I the only one who remembers that role-playing is about make-believe and imagination, not one's real life?
For those who say there is no solid evidence concerning the relation between the alignment of the characters you play and the morals you define for yourself, I say look to your DMs for all the imperical evidence you could ever need. Seems to me that the obvious answer is: "no, playing evil characters does not make you evil." Or, am I the only one who remembers that role-playing is about make-believe and imagination, not one's real life?
Anabstercorian
First Post
Mr. Trustum makes an excellent point. Most DM's are stuck in a naturally unhealthy job if your positions are true, SemperJase. I'm not entirely clear on everyone's positions, but I do respect all of them. Personally, I'm a moral relativist who believes that his own relative position is worth making a fuss over preserving. Just because all moral positions are equally VALID doesn't mean they're all equally good for people, after all.
EarthsShadow
First Post
It's amazing just how touchy some people can be. One person doesn't like the content of Dragon Magazine 300, and thinks it should be banned or recalled, or never done again. Another person thinks its a great thing that they printed what they printed, and they should again. Other's take a middle ground. Other's dislike it because they think its a marketing ploy to get people to buy an upcoming book... in this case, the BoVD. To some, the articles were gross...to others, it wasn't vile at all. You are all arguing with each other to try and prove to the other person that they are wrong and only you are right.
Now, if you are able to take your self opinions away, and look at the situation from a different angle...you would see and understand that each and everyone of your opinions are correct. None of us are wrong. WotC is not wrong for printing that article. You are not wrong for disliking the article, and you are not wrong for liking the article. You are not wrong if you don't purchase the book for whatever reasons you decide for, and the other person is not wrong if they do purchase the book for whatever reasons. All of us are right, none of us are wrong. Period.
We are all playing this game, each of us has our own styles of gaming, and that's all right for us. Some may not agree with others, and that's fine. LIke someone said, if we all played the same kind of game, we would be very boring people. Life is like that.
I guess the only thing wrong that I have read is for someone to specifically tell someone else that they are wrong because they don't believe the same exact thing...gosh, it kinda reminds me about christianity (sorry if this offends some of you, but to me, its the same).
Buy the book, don't buy the book, in the end who really cares what someone else is going to do. Speak your opinions but take care not to specifically slam others. All of us are right, because we are sticking to our own view, and keep with it.
I will buy the book. I will use it. I want to run a game where the players run across a Owl Bear that just rampaged through a farm, with the body of its victims disemb....you get the picture. Your playing a fantasy game, with creatures that would, in real life, do these things. You can use them, or not, its your choice...frankly...final point...
IF ITS IN THE GAME, ITS IN THE GAME!!
Now, if you are able to take your self opinions away, and look at the situation from a different angle...you would see and understand that each and everyone of your opinions are correct. None of us are wrong. WotC is not wrong for printing that article. You are not wrong for disliking the article, and you are not wrong for liking the article. You are not wrong if you don't purchase the book for whatever reasons you decide for, and the other person is not wrong if they do purchase the book for whatever reasons. All of us are right, none of us are wrong. Period.
We are all playing this game, each of us has our own styles of gaming, and that's all right for us. Some may not agree with others, and that's fine. LIke someone said, if we all played the same kind of game, we would be very boring people. Life is like that.
I guess the only thing wrong that I have read is for someone to specifically tell someone else that they are wrong because they don't believe the same exact thing...gosh, it kinda reminds me about christianity (sorry if this offends some of you, but to me, its the same).
Buy the book, don't buy the book, in the end who really cares what someone else is going to do. Speak your opinions but take care not to specifically slam others. All of us are right, because we are sticking to our own view, and keep with it.
I will buy the book. I will use it. I want to run a game where the players run across a Owl Bear that just rampaged through a farm, with the body of its victims disemb....you get the picture. Your playing a fantasy game, with creatures that would, in real life, do these things. You can use them, or not, its your choice...frankly...final point...
IF ITS IN THE GAME, ITS IN THE GAME!!
My useless opinion:
This discussion is an old one....
It started i believe with story books, than movies, songs, video-games, and now rpg books.
The people complaining is always the same defenders of good moral.
The arguments are always the same. "The content of this book will hurt the moral integrity of those who read". The concern about their children in the near future is very common too.
The answer to that is also the same... NO book, os movie, or song, or whatever can change a person´s integrity.
Of course, if you are already a latent psycho, probalby the content may be a trigger...
SO if u are worried about your children, just give them a good education, love and affection. Thats what I do.
or
Just dont buy the book...
but plz, stop complaining about it, I want it. If they cancel the BOVD I´ll have to awake the latent psycho inside me
This discussion is an old one....
It started i believe with story books, than movies, songs, video-games, and now rpg books.
The people complaining is always the same defenders of good moral.
The arguments are always the same. "The content of this book will hurt the moral integrity of those who read". The concern about their children in the near future is very common too.
The answer to that is also the same... NO book, os movie, or song, or whatever can change a person´s integrity.
Of course, if you are already a latent psycho, probalby the content may be a trigger...
SO if u are worried about your children, just give them a good education, love and affection. Thats what I do.
or
Just dont buy the book...
but plz, stop complaining about it, I want it. If they cancel the BOVD I´ll have to awake the latent psycho inside me
William Ronald
Explorer
I think people can have differing opinions, and can disagree politely.
For myself, I do not see playing evil characters as inherently evil. Actors, for example, need not become their characters.
To briefly address some of the philosophical/ethical issues, I personally believe that some things are clearly wrong. However, I do respect the right of people to disagree with me even if I do not agree with their opinions.
Rock Lord has raised a valid point in that a single book or television program will likely not irreparably damage someone. However, there are some exceptions, including those with personal issues or psychological problems.
I think the best way to approach the BOVD or any other controversial material is to use our own best judgement as individuals.
Sometimes, it is perhaps appropriate to show how truly evil and wicked a villain or a government can be to players. It can give them a sense of why their characters oppose something in the case of many characters. It may represent to some characters a line that they will not cross. However, I believe the option on how to present evil or any topic in a game ultimately must be an individual decision.
For myself, I do not see playing evil characters as inherently evil. Actors, for example, need not become their characters.
To briefly address some of the philosophical/ethical issues, I personally believe that some things are clearly wrong. However, I do respect the right of people to disagree with me even if I do not agree with their opinions.
Rock Lord has raised a valid point in that a single book or television program will likely not irreparably damage someone. However, there are some exceptions, including those with personal issues or psychological problems.
I think the best way to approach the BOVD or any other controversial material is to use our own best judgement as individuals.
Sometimes, it is perhaps appropriate to show how truly evil and wicked a villain or a government can be to players. It can give them a sense of why their characters oppose something in the case of many characters. It may represent to some characters a line that they will not cross. However, I believe the option on how to present evil or any topic in a game ultimately must be an individual decision.
vsper
First Post
Morality and elf soup
I know my players more often than not believe I am evil. I am not of coarse. I do what I need to. I say if we were not meant to eat elves, Corellon wound have made them so tasty.
On a more serious note I run probably one of the darkest campaigns I have ever seen. Yet I have no urge to do any wrong doing.
I had a halfling theif in my campaign who was a "mob" boss. He also is one of the nicest guys in the world. Wrong is something that we bring with us to the game not that the game gives to us. To blame a game, videos, or books for improper behavior says that the human mind or will is so weak that we can not think or believe for ourselves.
I am willing to bet that if you asked all the people who commit murder almost all will tell you that it is wrong. That means they had to make a choice to do something wrong. I believe that the circumstances of their lives were the real factor in their decision, not their type of roleplaying.
Vsper
janus_01@yahoo.com
Steve Conan Trustrum said:
I know my players more often than not believe I am evil. I am not of coarse. I do what I need to. I say if we were not meant to eat elves, Corellon wound have made them so tasty.
On a more serious note I run probably one of the darkest campaigns I have ever seen. Yet I have no urge to do any wrong doing.
I had a halfling theif in my campaign who was a "mob" boss. He also is one of the nicest guys in the world. Wrong is something that we bring with us to the game not that the game gives to us. To blame a game, videos, or books for improper behavior says that the human mind or will is so weak that we can not think or believe for ourselves.
I am willing to bet that if you asked all the people who commit murder almost all will tell you that it is wrong. That means they had to make a choice to do something wrong. I believe that the circumstances of their lives were the real factor in their decision, not their type of roleplaying.
Vsper
janus_01@yahoo.com
Storm Raven
First Post
SemperJase said:
Given that at many points in our history, it was seen as a virtuous action, I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that it is universally evil. In ancient Greece, slavery was not only viewed as a good thing, but those who practiced it were seen as being virtuous. Are the ancient Greeks the moral equivalent of orcs?
Is a draft of soldiers evil? It is removing people from their preferred living area and making them do a job they didn't want to do. Is this morally different from slavery? How?
What if: The orcs actually were imprisoning an evil deity who could not be otherwise contained by feeding it a hundred human souls to lock its prison for another hundred years. This divine beast, if allowed to be free will kill all living creatures in the world within days. The orcs don't want anyone to know about this for fear that some insane non-orc will release the beast either intentionally or by accident. Your actions in interfering with this ritual, has ensured the death of every individual in the world.
Are your actions still justified? Are they still good? Did you bother to find out?
Did you try to ransom the prisoners from the orcs before you slaughtered them? Did you try to negotiate? Did you try stealth without bloodshed? Did you use a sleep spell to knock any of the orcs out? If you did, did you kill them while they were helpless? Is death an appropriate punishment for the kidnapping and enslavement of others? Did your characters have the right to determine the sentence appropriate for the crimes of these orcs? Where did you derive this right?
I can find lots of things that would call into question your methods, and the morals of your actions. But your characters live in a cartoon world where killing orcs is just dandy because they are, after all, orcs.
Given your "clarifications", I'd say, no, it was actually just the alignments written down on the paper that "justified" your actions. You didn't bother to think about it first, showing that your moral code is just a facile way to get what you want (lots of orc killin' in this case).
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To the folks who mentioned the "evil for the DM" thing -- SJ has already responded to this. Multiple times, in fact. It might not be a response you agree with, but it's been beaten to death.
His take was that DMs don't internalize their NPCs the way PCs do their characters. For what it's worth, I agree with him on that point. My Evil Orc isn't someone I'm trying to deeply empathize with. Some NPCs I put a lot of thought into -- others, I don't.
That doesn't mean I agree with him about Evil PCs leading to Evil Players, mind you. Some players who play CE murderers then go murder people in real life -- I will freely grant correlation. But I strongly disagree about causation, and would not consider "playing evil PCs made this guy kill people in real life" to be accurate any more than I would consider "eating lots of ice cream made that guy drown."***
Just wanted to keep the conversation flowing.
-tacky
*** That may have been esoteric. It's an old study that shows how ice cream sales at beaches correlate strongly with the number of drownings -- more ice cream, more drownings. But that doesn't mean that ice cream CAUSED the drownings. Increased ice cream sales were a result of more people on the beach due to a very hot summer. Increased drownings were ALSO due to more people on the beach due to a very hot summer. If that study had blamed ice cream for drownings, ice cream vendors could have kicked off the beaches with anecdotal evidence about ice cream causing cramps while swimming and all that stuff. BoVD would, in this instance, be the Ice Cream.
His take was that DMs don't internalize their NPCs the way PCs do their characters. For what it's worth, I agree with him on that point. My Evil Orc isn't someone I'm trying to deeply empathize with. Some NPCs I put a lot of thought into -- others, I don't.
That doesn't mean I agree with him about Evil PCs leading to Evil Players, mind you. Some players who play CE murderers then go murder people in real life -- I will freely grant correlation. But I strongly disagree about causation, and would not consider "playing evil PCs made this guy kill people in real life" to be accurate any more than I would consider "eating lots of ice cream made that guy drown."***
Just wanted to keep the conversation flowing.
-tacky
*** That may have been esoteric. It's an old study that shows how ice cream sales at beaches correlate strongly with the number of drownings -- more ice cream, more drownings. But that doesn't mean that ice cream CAUSED the drownings. Increased ice cream sales were a result of more people on the beach due to a very hot summer. Increased drownings were ALSO due to more people on the beach due to a very hot summer. If that study had blamed ice cream for drownings, ice cream vendors could have kicked off the beaches with anecdotal evidence about ice cream causing cramps while swimming and all that stuff. BoVD would, in this instance, be the Ice Cream.
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