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5E Brain Storm Lunging Attack Maneuver

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
This seems the least of BM maneuvers but I could be missing something honestly trying to understand its value.
  1. Run around your enemies while remaining 5 feet further away and make a series of attacks without triggering an opportunity attack for fun. (instead of focus firing like a sane person til the bad guys die) = cant do this its one attack only so....
  2. Change it to Lunging stance so all your attacks till next turn are at the +5 foot extended reach and the first that hits gets the superiority die Or even make it so the stance only drops after you hit (does that fix it) Somebody will surely say it's too powerful.
  3. Change it so your adroit maneuvering allows you to attack through an square freely even if the target would normally get half cover (Hey dude if you miss your cs die is very very wasted and you have to pick first before rolling )
  4. Change it so it also adds extra damage (based on attribute or proficiency if you are trained in medicine) damn it that is really what lunging is for. Adding your weight to the attack.
  5. Figure out why it might make a polearm build more awesome and leave it alone at least contextually.
  6. Hope the DM makes more enemies with reach that gives them extra or attacks that stop you short if you try to attack with the shorter weapon.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I almost wonder if the idea was made early in the design and it was meant to combine with something else which didnt pan out.
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
Yeah, it doesn't seem like something that's going to get a whole lot of value. Maaaaaaybe an agile character before getting extra attack might want it for some hit and run without provoking an opportunity attack ... but at that point just use a bow.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, it doesn't seem like something that's going to get a whole lot of value. Maaaaaaybe an agile character before getting extra attack might want it for some hit and run without provoking an opportunity attack ... but at that point just use a bow.
Without something downright strange happening its a mechanical bust with ok flavor which ahem is the worst kind.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, it doesn't seem like something that's going to get a whole lot of value. Maaaaaaybe an agile character before getting extra attack might want it for some hit and run without provoking an opportunity attack ... but at that point just use a bow.
I am thinking adding my 3 and 4 to it could do the trick ... its still a maybe you wasted your die entirely trick
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
This seems the least of BM maneuvers but I could be missing something honestly trying to understand its value.
  1. Run around your enemies while remaining 5 feet further away and make a series of attacks without triggering an opportunity attack for fun. (instead of focus firing like a sane person til the bad guys die) = cant do this its one attack only so....
  2. Change it to Lunging stance so all your attacks till next turn are at the +5 foot extended reach and the first that hits gets the superiority die Or even make it so the stance only drops after you hit (does that fix it) Somebody will surely say it's too powerful.
  3. Change it so your adroit maneuvering allows you to attack through an square freely even if the target would normally get half cover (Hey dude if you miss your cs die is very very wasted and you have to pick first before rolling )
  4. Change it so it also adds extra damage (based on attribute or proficiency if you are trained in medicine) damn it that is really what lunging is for. Adding your weight to the attack.
  5. Figure out why it might make a polearm build more awesome and leave it alone at least contextually.
  6. Hope the DM makes more enemies with reach that gives them extra or attacks that stop you short if you try to attack with the shorter weapon.
This is probably the missing piece you are stumped on. Back in 3.5 a pole arm would threaten opportunity attacks against squares 10 feet away but not the adjacent ones. Lunging strike would allow the 10' reach benefits without the drawbacks. Of course in 5e pole arms threaten both and the real benefits of threatening a zone like that are dramatically reduced by how AoOs were so badly cut down. You can see another victim of this by compithe bag of holding & Howard handy haversack in 5e to each other then spot the missing bit that explains the capacity and rarity differences by looking at the 3.5 haversack.im sure there are other bits of nonsense like those
 

Xeviat

Adventurer
I am thinking adding my 3 and 4 to it could do the trick ... its still a maybe you wasted your die entirely trick
Heck, make it a move and attack with your action. Like ... half speed and attack and add your superiority die to damage. You don't lunge and then end up where you were. You don't provoke opportunity attacks moving within reach, so that part of 3E isn't needed, but there are times a melee character can't get to someone with a single move so having what would basically be a charge feat but with bonus damage for superiority dice cost could be useful. More useful than +5 reach that doesn't last for the whole round.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I rewrote Lunge and combined the basic rule "extend reach by 5 feet" to the mechanics of the Barbarian's "Reckless Attack". It now reads for me:

-Lunge- When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to lunge forward, widening your opening for the attack but leaving you open for easier attacks in return. You increase your reach for your attack by 5 feet and gain advantage on the attack roll, and if you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll. However, all attacks made against you until the start of your next turn also have advantage.

It has made it a much more favorable choice for Battlemasters than it was previously... especially since Reach in my games barely sees any bonus over non-reach situations.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
but there are times a melee character can't get to someone with a single move so having what would basically be a charge feat but with bonus damage for superiority dice cost could be useful.
Perhaps not coincidentally we already have... Maneuvering Attack
note the balance difference with maneuvering attack you are guaranteed the benefit of the CS die where as if the bonus CS die is at the end of subsequent movement you are not. Such a charge maneuver is technically weaker than Maneuvering Attack. (I think it needs about a 1/2 more CS daka like a bonus based on a secondary or tertiary attribute)

Additionally since such a Lunging Attack since it affects only self logically is less valuable in terms of situational frequency to Maneuvering attack. In other words we can make it like Maneuvering attack a lot like you suggest but we need a small damage bonus and to realize its value will still come up less frequently; unless perhaps you are the only combatant in the party that gets out of reach... hmmm bet not though.

Someone might end up using a Lunging Attack on an occasion when they would have otherwise gotten an attack but find that the small amount more now taking the enemy down faster (just one CS die and maybe half again more) .

The blocking opportunity attacks on the move actually makes this flavor well as the Destreza Lunge from classic fencing.
 



Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I rewrote Lunge and combined the basic rule "extend reach by 5 feet" to the mechanics of the Barbarian's "Reckless Attack". It now reads for me:
I may consider making 2 lunges one being a Reckless Lunge (I think yours needs more damage boost as 5 feet is unlikely to provide an attack opportunity you do not have) and the other the Protected Lunge like described above (aka Spanish Circle Destreza Style).
 

As I see it, there are two things that you could leverage to adjust the Lunge maneuver.

One would be to represent the surprise value of hitting an opponent who thought they were out of your reach.
Another would be representing it as an "all in" attack rather than the sequence of attacks that normal combat is assumed to be.

The first would be tricky because other than just advantage on the attack roll, there aren't that many ways of representing it that aren't too niche.
The second might be the best bet:
"As an action, make an attack with a melee weapon you are wielding, treating it as having a reach 5ft greater than normal. If the attack hits, add your superiority dice to the damage. If you have the Extra Attack feature treat your weapon's reach as 10ft greater and double the damage from the attack before adding the superiority dice."
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Another would be representing it as an "all in" attack rather than the sequence of attacks that normal combat is assumed to be.

The second might be the best bet:
"As an action, make an attack with a melee weapon you are wielding, treating it as having a reach 5ft greater than normal. If the attack hits, add your superiority dice to the damage. If you have the Extra Attack feature treat your weapon's reach as 10ft greater and double the damage from the attack before adding the superiority dice."
I am still thinking in terms of a Maneuver ie mostly designed for fighters so the "as an action" is off is some fashion
That said as a maneuver its numerically close
The CS die value is adds an Attack Opportunity you wouldn't have gotten + CS die worth of damage if it works for price of a CS die. I rethought and you seem to have the value clase as a normal cs die. A riposte advantage is not exactly combined with an attack it just adds one... so if you choose to use it to boost your next attack the price works out.

The biggest problem with the idea for me is that it is not situational and too easy to target. A riposte kind of happens when it wants to less when you want it *though if you buff your defenses its still pretty much against anyone you are fighting so its not that different either.

In 3e and 4e it would be situationally valuable to overcome DR but is less tactical in 5e.
as it only gains a little situational benefit if some other effect grants you advantage or inspiration to improve a single attack accuracy (which would not benefit two).

We could add the charge element back in ... ie you must start 10 feet or more away doing the lunge ie move in a straight line 10 feet towards them to gain momentum advantage.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Note the must move 10 feet provides some positional situational limit which i think is part of maneuvers.
 

I am still thinking in terms of a Maneuver ie mostly designed for fighters so the "as an action" is off is some fashion
I'd suggest increasing the damage again if Extra Attacks gives you more than one attack per attack action. I only tent to plan things up to level 10ish.

I decided to have it as an action and increase damage rather than as an attack, because I wanted to consolidate all the damage of a full attack sequence into one maneuver. Rather than force the BM to have to spend extra SD to make all their attacks from that range.
An alternate writing could simply involve spending the SD and then all your attacks for that turn count as having the increased reach. However, this doesn't preserve the image of the single decisive attack, and I wasn't sure what to do with the result of the SD roll.

That said as a maneuver its numerically close
The CS die value is adds an Attack Opportunity you wouldn't have gotten + CS die worth of damage if it works for price of a CS die. I rethought and you seem to have the value clase as a normal cs die. A riposte advantage is not exactly combined with an attack it just adds one... so if you choose to use it to boost your next attack the price works out.

The biggest problem with the idea for me is that it is not situational and too easy to target. A riposte kind of happens when it wants to less when you want it *though if you buff your defenses its still pretty much against anyone you are fighting so its not that different either.

In 3e and 4e it would be situationally valuable to overcome DR but is less tactical in 5e.
as it only gains a little situational benefit if some other effect grants you advantage or inspiration to improve a single attack accuracy (which would not benefit two).

We could add the charge element back in ... ie you must start 10 feet or more away doing the lunge ie move in a straight line 10 feet towards them to gain momentum advantage.
The idea was less as a tool for getting through 3.5e-style DR and more the ability to attack from a range that you don't need to disengage from and avoiding any aura or backlash effects.

This is pretty situational. I think given the surprise that the lunge is supposed to be, and the fact that you're putting all your eggs in one basket, making the attack roll with Advantage is fine.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'd suggest increasing the damage again if Extra Attacks gives you more than one attack per attack action. I only tent to plan things up to level 10ish.
Yeh before that point "as an action" is ok ... and since I like to start at 5 through 15 so I would want scaling by number of extra attacks as you say.
I decided to have it as an action and increase damage rather than as an attack, because I wanted to consolidate all the damage of a full attack sequence into one maneuver. Rather than force the BM to have to spend extra SD to make all their attacks from that range.
Various things in 5e use the language forgo an attack to do X... such could be used to allow better scaling of attacks within it.

The idea was less as a tool for getting through 3.5e-style DR and more the ability to attack from a range that you don't need to disengage from and avoiding any aura or backlash effects.
Good point those are both very situational benefits since one could argue DR isn't totally prolific in the last 2 editions either though I think the situational of being actually able to hit through solid defenses is an Aggressive flavor that fits ALL IN. where as not being retaliated on by the odd aura or such is flavorwise the opposite.

This has steady freddy value comparable to riposte... but can be focus fired on the target you want easier.

I think given the surprise that the lunge is supposed to be, and the fact that you're putting all your eggs in one basket, making the attack roll with Advantage is fine.
Nods you may be right there is a disadvantage inherent ahem easter basket issue and what one compares it to is not altogether sitchie either ie the situationality of a riposte is pretty meh anyway I mean ummm somebody missing you? ok how many fights does that NOT happen.
 

Yeh before that point "as an action" is ok ... and since I like to start at 5 through 15 so I would want scaling by number of extra attacks as you say.

Various things in 5e use the language forgo an attack to do X... such could be used to allow better scaling of attacks within it.


Good point those are both very situational benefits since one could argue DR isn't totally prolific in the last 2 editions either though I think the situational of being actually able to hit through solid defenses is an Aggressive flavor that fits ALL IN. where as not being retaliated on by the odd aura or such is flavorwise the opposite.

This has steady freddy value comparable to riposte... but can be focus fired on the target you want easier.


Nods you may be right there is a disadvantage inherent ahem easter basket issue and what one compares it to is not altogether sitchie either ie the situationality of a riposte is pretty meh anyway I mean ummm somebody missing you? ok how many fights does that NOT happen.
Another option would be to allow other maneuvers to be used on it. So you can use it to deliver not just damage from a safer distance, but also maneuver effects.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Another option would be to allow other maneuvers to be used on it. So you can use it to deliver not just damage from a safer distance, but also maneuver effects.
They certainly put caps on combining maneuvers... certainly seems like a possibility of this attack mostly pumps damage so you can combine it.
 

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