Brainstorming on spell fixes

[Dandu]

You guys realize all of these spells has been play tested for months and possibly even years right?

But I guess that doesn't matter. The mage has got to be depowered.

MONK
The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

 

[Icyshadowlord]

Yet despite that, statistics say Monk is among the weakest of the core classes. Oh, what flavor gives, the stats take.

And yeah, I like this spell editing list so far. Though I am sure some of the high-end damaging spells could use some fixing as well. (that's what a pal of mine was telling me. Don't know if I should believe him though)

 

[Dandu]

Wall of Stone/Iron [fix: these spells need a duration other than instantaneous, I'm open to suggestions]

Hardness halves each day due to decay, erosion, and/or rust.

 

[Empirate]

@Icyshadowlord:
Damaging spells are never what a DM is concerned about. Melee >> magic in the damage department, usually, unless you optimize your caster for damage output.

However, casters can do far more problematic things than pure damage:
They can call extraplanar creatures and abuse their special abilities (Efreet for free Wishes is the most common example); do Scry&Fry tactics; use divination spells that reveal the BBEG's goals, modus operandi, and weaknesses, along with his current whereabouts; provide methods of travel that all but make geography irrelevant; provide extraplanar safe havens so the party is untrackable and unassailable; and of course shutting down the bigger part of the opposition for several rounds with a single spell, in every single combat, so your teammates can take them out piecemeal while the caster preens his fingernails.

 

[TanisFrey]

Alter Self should be altered so that wings give you a fly speed that is Clumsy at best. A humanoid spell caster giving himself wings will not be the best of fliers because unused to flapping their new wings. When birds learn to fly they are clumsy until they learn use their species natural ability to fly.

And is should be a slower fly speed than the Fly or Overland Flight spells. Higher level spells should give you better speeds and/or better Maneuverability.

 

[Celebrim]

You guys realize all of these spells has been play tested for months and possibly even years right?

But I guess that doesn't matter. The mage has got to be depowered.

These spells have been play tested for ten years by ten's of thousands of groups, and the conclusions are usually about the same. I think that most of the suggestions are not only spot on, but widely adopted fixes.

And I would add that in many cases, like say Alter Self, your claim simply isn't true. This was a spell that got changed between 3.0 and 3.5 without extensive playing testing, and which wasn't broken in 3.0 but which is very breakable in 3.5. All the change does is move it back toward the 3.0 power level.

 

[Celebrim]

What do you think?

I think you did a very good job overall.

Comprehend Languages [fix: gives a set bonus of +10 to Decipher Script skills instead of auto-deciphering]

My version let's you use Scry in place of Decipher Script together with a small additional bonus. However, that means keeping the 3.0 Scry skill in your game.

Divine Power [fix: remove the ability to cast spells while under the effect of Divine Power]

I don't consider the spell problimatic unless it is made Persistant.

Enlarge Person[fix: reduce duration to 1 rd/CL, and move to 3rd level]

I haven't had a particularly large problem with this spell in either the 3.0 or 3.5 version, but on the other hand, it is one of those spells that was made stronger in 3.5 without a whole lot of play testing. I find it hard to believe however that its a 3rd level spell - compare for example with Heroism or 3.5 Haste.

Entangle [fix: reduce radius to 10'; OR move to 3rd level]

The only problem with this spell is that the strength check it provokes is far too high. The spell is highly situational otherwise, and for example, I can't think of but one sitaution so far in my campaign where the spell could have been used because the combats have occurred in urban areas or underground for the most part. If you really have problems with this spells abuse, have it provide partial cover to those entangled by it and drop the strength/escape artist check to 15 or so and give a DC (25?) to break free as a free action.

And this is a clear case where if the spell is a problem, moving it to 3rd level does not help the situation under the RAW. That's because under RAW, it just makes the spell more powerful (Reflex save to avoid effect is now much harder).

Freedom of Movement [fix: move to 6th level]

I disagree. The main problem with this spell is it provides absolute immunity. Fix it to provide a bonus to reflex saves (and makes 1 not an automatic failure) and a bonus to escape artist checks that scales with caster level and its not only fine, you could concievably reduce level.

Glitterdust [fix: "Spell Resistance: Yes (blinding only)"]

Not a big problem IMO. Better is, reduce duration of blinding to 1d4 rounds.

Knock [fix: adds a set +10 bonus to Open Lock checks]

Knock is indeed a problimatic spell, and I like your thinking here but you've nerfed the spell. Knock should provide an Open Lock bonus that scales with level (or allows you to use Scry in place of Open Lock if you retain 3.0 scry, which I do). Also, it should alternatively allow you to attempt to overcome a barriers break DC with a caster level check. Knock doesn't just open locks; it's can dislodge the bolt or bar on a barred door as well.

Mage's/Mordenkainen's Disjunction [fix: does not permanently destroy magic items, but does suppress them for CL rounds]

Only makes it more powerful. Of course, you may be aiming for something other than a power level fix with this.

Magic Circle vs. Evil/etc. [fix: see Protection from Evil, and move to 5th level]

Not a spell I have a problem with. My only fix would be to have the spell target an immobile point.

Mind Blank [fix: reduce duration to 10 min/CL]

No. My only problem with the spell is the absolute immunity. Change to provide a large bonus to Will saves vs. the appropriate spells and make it so that you don't automatically fail on a one.

Mirror Image [fix: move to 3rd level]

Doesn't really address the problem, if any. I don't have a problem with this spell as there are just too many counters from great cleave to fireball to dispel magic. To the extent that there is a problem, spell shouldn't stack with displacement/blur or other miss chance provoking spells at least to the extent that the images shouldn't gain a miss chance. I don't think it actually does reading the spell description, but it is apparently ambigious enough that some have interpreted it that way.

Planar Binding line [fix: don't set a HD cap, set a CR cap instead; or use Summon Monster-like tables for call-able creatures]

CR cap is appropriate though there are really only a handful of ways to break this spell. The fact that there is a chance of spell failure is a big balance on this spell.

Protection from Evil/etc. [fix: only protects from possession and mind control originating from creatures of the warded-against alignment, and move to 3rd level]

I don't have a problem with this spell. Duration is normally too short to have much of an effect. Spell is only problimatic if you use a niave version of Persistant Spell. Real solution is either don't use Persistant Spell or fix it so that the normal duration of the spell is taken into account when computing the new spell level.

Polymorph any Object [fix: there is no fix. This spell must go]

I don't have a problem with it. It's a high level spell. I'm not sure what you are seeing as the problem except possibly using this as a permenent polymorph self, which should be fixable in the way that the 1st edition versions of polymorph are fixable - mental state and personality is likely to shift with form.

Resist Energy [fix: do not increase the energy resistance at higher CLs]

I don't have a problem with this. High amounts of energy resistance are desirable at high level to allow flavorful environments to be traversed. Equally desirable is to have energy resistance penetration available to casters that depend heavily on a single element.

Shapechange [fix: remove the ability to use the spell-like and supernatural abilities of a creature you shapechange into, and introduce a clause stating that you cannot use any natural spellcasting the creature you shapechange into might have (such as a Planetar's Cleric spellcasting)]

Agreed.

Wall of Stone/Iron [fix: these spells need a duration other than instantaneous, I'm open to suggestions]

I don't have a real problem with these spells. If you are really worried, give them an XP cost.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Dannyalcatraz and everyone,

Excellent idea for a thread! (I can't XP you again for a while yet). Empirate has really gone wild with astute suggestions so I might try a slightly different tack.

There is a very important division in spells based upon casting time. One group forms combat spells (having a casting time of swift, standard, full round, one round). These are spells that are easily craft and cast within the combat environment. The other group forms rituals (borrowing 4e's terminology for the moment). Rituals have a casting time above 1 round (with Restoration's 3 round casting time being the quickest casting time and then obviously moving upwards from there). Now while rituals cannot reasonably be cast in combat, they still impact on combat in quite dramatic ways.

I think there are quite a few spells that for want of a better phrase are a pain in the arse to adjudicate when cast, slowing the game down while unfamiliar players adjust to the spell and its particulars. These spells are typically character transformations that require a series of multiple adjustments and notes. Essentially, these spells should be forced into rituals and out of casting range in combat by changing their casting time. This ensures that they are cast "pre-combat" (when such adjustments to character sheets make sense) to garner an in-combat benefit.

Flavour-wise, you are most likely looking to add some sort of significant material component or focus to rituals as well. Rituals should feel like rituals and not just spells. I think making rituals have a standard duration (rather than one based upon caster level) is important for clarity. It allows one to have a series or chain of rituals that scale more appropriately for in game balance.

And so I think emphasizing this distinction in casting time to effectively ritualize many existing spells is an important step in providing clarity and ease during combat. The question now becomes which ones - a post for another day.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Empirate]

I see where you're coming from, and like the basic idea. Most "ritual" spells I can remember off the top of my head are either utility (Scrying), taking care of bad stuff happened to you (Restoration, Raise Dead), or provide rather simple stat adjustments (Heroes' Feast). Care to provide some examples of the more complicated ones you'd like to see included?

 

[Icyshadowlord]

This thread also reminded me of one thing that a friend of mine said after I linked this all to him: According to him, changing the spells should also make it so that the monster stats need some revising. I wonder where he was trying to get with that, but what are your thoughts?

Also, Celebrim. How does the suggested change exactly make Mordenkainen's Disjunction more powerful as a spell? And how would you fix it then? (Just asking)