Branimir's Open Letter to Games Workshop


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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I don't disagree with anything of that GW's statement. But as I have said: some people actively try to find social injustice in everything, and call those who oppose them bigoted.
Well, that's a different discussion altogether. Can we agree that the statement is fine, and that disagreement with it is problematic?
 


macd21

Adventurer
can you provide an example? this feels like a strawman argument.

It is. It’s a distraction from the issue. GW basically says “bigots will not be missed” and suddenly you have people complaining about social justice warriors ruining everything. The only people who should have a problem with GW’s statement are bigots. Anyone who has a problem with it needs to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror.
 

Immeril

Explorer
Well, that's a different discussion altogether. Can we agree that the statement is fine, and that disagreement with it is problematic?
Absolutely. To be honest, it's been a while since I was involved in the online GW community. Last I checked, the vitriol was directed to the Primaris Marines. But if the current gripe mostly consists of (as other posters suggested) black Space Marines, then I agree: there is a problem in the GW community.
 

Immeril

Explorer
It is. It’s a distraction from the issue. GW basically says “bigots will not be missed” and suddenly you have people complaining about social justice warriors ruining everything. The only people who should have a problem with GW’s statement are bigots. Anyone who has a problem with it needs to take a good hard look at themselves in the mirror.
In my opinion, it's more about desensitization. Spark enough of those silly discussions (remember the PETA complaints about Space Wolves wearing fur, and whaling in Assassin's Creed IV), and some people will stop caring about actual problems.
Look at COVID, every day more and more people start ignoring the directives of their governments, despite the occasional flare up.
 

pogre

Legend
I have been trying to figure out who Branimir is - is he an Eastern European (perhaps Polish) modeler and painter? I'm just trying to understand why folks would care about this guy's take on the GW statement. He seems to expect to have a big impact on social media. My googling gave me some possibilities, but nothing definitive.

Can we agree that the statement is fine, and that disagreement with it is problematic?

Yep. I thought GW's statement was particularly well-stated.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
The article I previously linked to.
okay then, I have to agree, dressing up like they're Egyptian feels legitimately problematic, and trying to dismiss concerns because it's based off the costume Elizabeth Taylor wore in Cleopatra is ignoring the issues with her role in the first place.

not sure how this is an example of "some people actively try[ing] to find social injustice in everything" either when the group very openly and publicly dressed like that to promote themselves, that's like calling someone a marksman because they're good at hitting the broad side of a barn.
 

Immeril

Explorer
okay then, I have to agree, dressing up like they're Egyptian feels legitimately problematic, and trying to dismiss concerns because it's based off the costume Elizabeth Taylor wore in Cleopatra is ignoring the issues with her role in the first place.

not sure how this is an example of "some people actively try[ing] to find social injustice in everything" either when the group very openly and publicly dressed like that to promote themselves, that's like calling someone a marksman because they're good at hitting the broad side of a barn.
Because it's a kid's movie? Because little girls like to dress up as princesses? Personally, I take bigger issue with the Bactrian camel on the movie poster. Egypt doesn't have Bactrian camels, it has dromedaries.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
I have been trying to figure out who Branimir is - is he an Eastern European (perhaps Polish) modeler and painter? I'm just trying to understand why folks would care about this guy's take on the GW statement. He seems to expect to have a big impact on social media. My googling gave me some possibilities, but nothing definitive.



Yep. I thought GW's statement was particularly well-stated.
I actually looked through the article and read "The open letter was recently publicly published to the /r/KotakuInAction subreddit." so I mean he knows his audience at least.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
Because it's a kid's movie? Because little girls like to dress up as princesses?
so? you can teach children about things like racism. you can dress like a princess without looking like a caricature from someone else's culture.
Personally, I take bigger issue with the Bactrian camel on the movie poster. Egypt doesn't have Bactrian camels, it has dromedaries.
right. okay. if this is how you view others calling out racism I'm not exactly sure why I should be taking your opinion this matter seriously.
 


Immeril

Explorer
so? you can teach children about things like racism. you can dress like a princess without looking like a caricature from someone else's culture.

right. okay. if this is how you view others calling out racism I'm not exactly sure why I should be taking your opinion this matter seriously.
Okay. So I suppose that, if I were to dress as a centurion for a fancy dress party, I can expect criticism from Italians?
 


Esau Cairn

Explorer
Suffice to say that I see these debates a bit differently because I don't live in the US.

A highly reductive rationalization.

Is GW in the US? Is Branimir in the US?
Does everyone in the US—or even all Warhammer fans in the US—see things the same way?

I've lived in nine countries of very different cultures in my life and worked in the wake of Very Bad Things Humans Do To Each Other, so I see things a bit differently. Oh, wait. No, I don't. Tolerating intolerance rarely—I'd say probably never but I mislike absolutes—leads to any kind of beneficial situation.
 

While I don't care about the author or GW, my takeaway is that politics really doesn't have a place in gaming. It's too divisive, drawing people away from the focus of the activity, which is the joy of gaming itself. GW (or WotC or whoever) can put out any statement or viewpoint they want, and even if I disagree with it I can still buy, play, and love the game. I don't judge a company by its political views, but by the quality of the product. I choose who I game with, and if I disapprove of them, I can choose to not game with them.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
While I don't care about the author or GW, my takeaway is that politics really doesn't have a place in gaming. It's too divisive, drawing people away from the focus of the activity, which is the joy of gaming itself. GW (or WotC or whoever) can put out any statement or viewpoint they want, and even if I disagree with it I can still buy, play, and love the game. I don't judge a company by its political views, but by the quality of the product. I choose who I game with, and if I disapprove of them, I can choose to not game with them.
Not abusing people is not politics, and I definitely want not abusing people in my gaming.
 

Immeril

Explorer
A highly reductive rationalization.

Is GW in the US? Is Branimir in the US?
Does everyone in the US—or even all Warhammer fans in the US—see things the same way?

I've lived in nine countries of very different cultures in my life and worked in the wake of Very Bad Things Humans Do To Each Other, so I see things a bit differently. Oh, wait. No, I don't. Tolerating intolerance rarely—I'd say probably never but I mislike absolutes—leads to any kind of beneficial situation.
All right, what I meant by that statement.

Concerning BLM: Yes, racism is definitely a major part of the problem. Yes, it is a fact that people of color are more likely to be pulled over than white people (not only in the US). Yes, there is a certain percentage of policemen that is trigger-happy, that uses excessive force.
Another part of the problem would seem to be (at least compared to my country) the Second Amendment. If I were to be a police officer, and I should assume that every civilian that I talk to is a potential gun owner, then I could see myself being on edge.

Suggesting that a problem could have more than one component doesn't mean that I'm ignoring the first component.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
All right, what I meant by that statement.

Concerning BLM: Yes, racism is definitely a major part of the problem. Yes, it is a fact that people of color are more likely to be pulled over than white people (not only in the US). Yes, there is a certain percentage of policemen that is trigger-happy, that uses excessive force.
Another part of the problem would seem to be (at least compared to my country) the Second Amendment. If I were to be a police officer, and I should assume that every civilian that I talk to is a potential gun owner, then I could see myself being on edge.

Suggesting that a problem could have more than one component doesn't mean that I'm ignoring the first component.
Folks, this is not a open season thread on politics, BLM, and the police. Stay on topic, please. The actual topic has barely been mentioned, in favour of genera political diversions.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
While I don't care about the author or GW, my takeaway is that politics really doesn't have a place in gaming. It's too divisive, drawing people away from the focus of the activity, which is the joy of gaming itself. GW (or WotC or whoever) can put out any statement or viewpoint they want, and even if I disagree with it I can still buy, play, and love the game. I don't judge a company by its political views, but by the quality of the product. I choose who I game with, and if I disapprove of them, I can choose to not game with them.
why is the argument about politics "it distracts from playing the game!"? when I'm down to playing a game I'm focused on playing. this doesn't mean I won't critique the game outside of playing it, I certainly will if I feel the need.

also if that's distracting, imagine someone playing "oh man this game I'm enjoying right now sure has some bad stereotypes about people like me!"
 

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