Branstorming for ENnies 2003 -- improvements, changes, etc
- Thread starter EricNoah
- Start date
Magestrike
First Post
An Idea
I've been reading over the posts again, and I wanted to throw something out to get feedback on.
Now, I'm not exactly sure HOW this would work exactly, but maybe someone else can fill in the gaps I leave.
I think the process up to the voting seems to work. The judges do and did a great job of choosing the best that was available in each category, and really should be applauded for their selfless effort. However, what if the voting went something like this.
During the voting process, instead of "voting" for a product, what if the voter was able to give their rating of the product, like say on a scale of 1-10. That way, if the voter really liked 2 products, but wanted to give the slight edge to one, they could give that one a 10 (or 9 or whatever), then the other could get a number slightly lower, like 9 or 8. The voter could then give a rating for each product they knew, which would lead to a rating score for each product. Obviously, the highest score would win. I think this would give a more accurate scope of the thoughts of the voters.
There could also be someway, that if the voter wasnt familiar with the product, to show that. Maybe leave it blank, or put a letter or something in the rating space.
I think that made sense. Again, Im not sure exactly how that would be setup or anything. Im just trying to help out the flow of ideas here..lol.
Warren
"aka Mage"
I've been reading over the posts again, and I wanted to throw something out to get feedback on.
Now, I'm not exactly sure HOW this would work exactly, but maybe someone else can fill in the gaps I leave.
I think the process up to the voting seems to work. The judges do and did a great job of choosing the best that was available in each category, and really should be applauded for their selfless effort. However, what if the voting went something like this.
During the voting process, instead of "voting" for a product, what if the voter was able to give their rating of the product, like say on a scale of 1-10. That way, if the voter really liked 2 products, but wanted to give the slight edge to one, they could give that one a 10 (or 9 or whatever), then the other could get a number slightly lower, like 9 or 8. The voter could then give a rating for each product they knew, which would lead to a rating score for each product. Obviously, the highest score would win. I think this would give a more accurate scope of the thoughts of the voters.
There could also be someway, that if the voter wasnt familiar with the product, to show that. Maybe leave it blank, or put a letter or something in the rating space.
I think that made sense. Again, Im not sure exactly how that would be setup or anything. Im just trying to help out the flow of ideas here..lol.
Warren
"aka Mage"
EricNoah
Adventurer
Yep, yep, rating is definitely a thing to consider.
You're right about where it breaks down, the popular vote. And yet I'm hearing from people who are saying "Give me enough credit, I'm educated, informed, etc. and I chose WotC and that should be a legit choice."
And I agree. EN World folks are going to be the world's best educated and informed audience on D&D and D20. They know there are third party products, they know where to buy them and look at them, they know where to find reviews, they know that they can have a conversation online (via the boards) with a rep from just about any of the companies. There is no other audience so prepared to do the popular vote.
That's where the thought about limiting voters to EN World registrants came from. And even though it sounded kind of iffy at first, it is appealing to me more right now.
You're right about where it breaks down, the popular vote. And yet I'm hearing from people who are saying "Give me enough credit, I'm educated, informed, etc. and I chose WotC and that should be a legit choice."
And I agree. EN World folks are going to be the world's best educated and informed audience on D&D and D20. They know there are third party products, they know where to buy them and look at them, they know where to find reviews, they know that they can have a conversation online (via the boards) with a rep from just about any of the companies. There is no other audience so prepared to do the popular vote.
That's where the thought about limiting voters to EN World registrants came from. And even though it sounded kind of iffy at first, it is appealing to me more right now.
Leopold
NKL4LYFE
nothing to do with ratings but general comments:
1. Dress up: Announcers dress up in more than tshirt and shorts, would be nice to have a polo shirt and khakis', makes it more formal.
2. Hold it in a conference hall: None of this random traffic that walks by and background noise. Can't hear squat.
3. Microphone: Get a microphone so you don't have to handoff the portable like a football.
4. Podium: Please get it so one can stand behind instead of a table, you can even put a microphone on the podium!
5. Pictures of the nominees: Having the lights off and having a projector project pictures of the companies product (much like the Oscar's in the showing of the movies) that is nominated would work. Now we know what the product is that is winning an award.
6. Theme music: Heck i know some companies would go nuts for this. Each company has a small theme music that gets played when it wins.
All i thought of on the ride home (50 miles) in the hurricane force rain while waiting in traffic.
LMK what y'all think.
1. Dress up: Announcers dress up in more than tshirt and shorts, would be nice to have a polo shirt and khakis', makes it more formal.
2. Hold it in a conference hall: None of this random traffic that walks by and background noise. Can't hear squat.
3. Microphone: Get a microphone so you don't have to handoff the portable like a football.
4. Podium: Please get it so one can stand behind instead of a table, you can even put a microphone on the podium!
5. Pictures of the nominees: Having the lights off and having a projector project pictures of the companies product (much like the Oscar's in the showing of the movies) that is nominated would work. Now we know what the product is that is winning an award.
6. Theme music: Heck i know some companies would go nuts for this. Each company has a small theme music that gets played when it wins.
All i thought of on the ride home (50 miles) in the hurricane force rain while waiting in traffic.
LMK what y'all think.
A Few Thoughts
Folks,
I've read the whole thread and think I understand the issues that Morrus, Eric, and others are going to be wrestling with over the next year or so. I do not envy them the coming decision, because no matter what they do, they risk limiting the "legitimacy" of the award and/or upsetting both fans and industry folk (in that order of importance, at least in my opinion). So, yuck.
All that said, I have to respectfully disagree with some d20 System publishers that Wizards of the Coast should be disqualified since they are not "truly" d20 publishers. Eric's site began as a way to track an exciting new edition of Dungeons & Dragons. With the birth of the Open Gaming and d20 licenses, it grew into something much, much more--a vibrant community that supports fans of the rules that serve as the foundation for gaming products from dozens of publishers, including Wizards of the Coast.
Message board chatter here on EN World now contains lots of talk about Spycraft, Dragonstar, Silver Age Sentinels, Scarred Lands, and Freeport, but the bulk of conversation remains Dungeons & Dragons in its many "official" incarnations.
Simply put, a significant portion of the members of this community are fans of official D&D material, most of which is published by Wizards of the Coast, the undisputed industry leader (at least for now). I pay as close attention as anyone to discussion threads related to 3rd-party products, both because it interests me to do so and because I feel like a stronger knowledge of the entire marketplace allows me to put out a better magazine. More often than not, the merits of a non-Wizards products are discussed _in terms of Wizards of the Coast products_.
How many times have we seen a rules supplement lauded as "far better than Sword and Fist"? How many times have people compared Rokugan or Scarred Lands or Spycraft to the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, or even the largely yet-to-be-seen d20 Modern?
A lot.
Yes, Wizards has enormous resources that give them a tactical advantage in a popularity contest. But is the "advantage gap" between Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf (SSS) as significant as the gap between White Wolf and Bastion Press? Or the gap between Bastion Press and Ambient?
As any serious observer of the industry could tell you, there have been SEVERAL "d20 System" products that eclipse the quality of similar products put out by Wizards of the Coast. The words "Sword" and "Fist" should be enough to dissuade anyone familiar with the tenor of EN World conversation from asserting that the Wizards logo is some sort of assurance of popularity 'round these parts.
This last year has seen more products that "contend" with WotC products than the year before. As more and more companies become more and more competitive in the year to come, and as Wizards of the Coast continues to shrink its product offerings (in terms of distinct products if not in terms of pages), more and more companies are going to have a shot at these awards.
Let's not forget that the d20 System is still in its infancy. How long did it take for other publishers to introduce four-color printing in their products? How long did it take smaller publishers to seriously consider the value of using good editors, good cartographers, and good interior and cover artists?
I've seen many posts to this very message board about a specific company that seems to refuse to effectively edit the books in one of their product lines. What has that done to the reputation of that product line, at least insofar as EN World is concerned?
Keeping Wizards of the Coast in the same categories as other companies raises the bar of competition to the pinnacle of what the d20 industry has to offer. Yes, it's extremely difficult for a two-person company to compete with Wizards of the Coast.
But it's been done.
Both Malhavoc and Green Ronin amount to little more than "two-person companies," albeit ones with impressive lists of freelancers. They compete and compete well, as both the nominee list and winner lists prove. As time goes on, more and more companies will compete on their level, which as we can see by the results is the same "level" as Wizards of the Coast.
The last year has seen an astronomical increase in both production values and editing in the d20 System industry. A handful of companies now "compete" by having brought to market beautiful products that meet or exceed the value offered to customers by a Wizards product. It's foolish to assume, in my opinion, that this trend will turn around over the next year and the year after that.
Competing with the "best of the best" seems to me to be the point of the ENnies. Rebuilding the contest to remove the most "threatening" company, for whatever motivation, makes the ENnies the "best of the rest."
In addition to the Best Accessory category, in which Dungeon/Polyhedron took home a much-appreciated award, I had two non-WotC products nominated in the Best Monster Book accessory. Both lost to a non-WotC product with better distribution and better production values. And I'm ok with that, really. It feels good to compete against _all_ eligible products from _all_ the companies discussed by the visitors of the EN World supersite.
If Creature Collection 2 had been bumped up into a "Best Monster Book Published by a Big Company" category, or even worse excluded from the contest entirely due to its "unfair" production and distribution advantages, the other folks competing in that category would no longer be competing for the honors of "best" monster book in the entire d20 industry. As much as I'd love to be recognized as often as possible, an award for "Best, But" doesn't really have the same weight to it.
I urge Eric, Morrus, and the other folks working on the awards to allow Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, AEG and others to participate in the same award ceremony as "mid-tier" companies like Bastion, Green Ronin, and Atlas and "lower tier," smaller companies like Ambient, Hammerdog, Goodman Games and any number of pdf publishers.
To do anything else taints the awards with business concerns that I believe don't matter to most EN World visitors, who prefer to judge a product based on its creative merits rather than on the name of the company who published it.
--Erik Mona
Folks,
I've read the whole thread and think I understand the issues that Morrus, Eric, and others are going to be wrestling with over the next year or so. I do not envy them the coming decision, because no matter what they do, they risk limiting the "legitimacy" of the award and/or upsetting both fans and industry folk (in that order of importance, at least in my opinion). So, yuck.
All that said, I have to respectfully disagree with some d20 System publishers that Wizards of the Coast should be disqualified since they are not "truly" d20 publishers. Eric's site began as a way to track an exciting new edition of Dungeons & Dragons. With the birth of the Open Gaming and d20 licenses, it grew into something much, much more--a vibrant community that supports fans of the rules that serve as the foundation for gaming products from dozens of publishers, including Wizards of the Coast.
Message board chatter here on EN World now contains lots of talk about Spycraft, Dragonstar, Silver Age Sentinels, Scarred Lands, and Freeport, but the bulk of conversation remains Dungeons & Dragons in its many "official" incarnations.
Simply put, a significant portion of the members of this community are fans of official D&D material, most of which is published by Wizards of the Coast, the undisputed industry leader (at least for now). I pay as close attention as anyone to discussion threads related to 3rd-party products, both because it interests me to do so and because I feel like a stronger knowledge of the entire marketplace allows me to put out a better magazine. More often than not, the merits of a non-Wizards products are discussed _in terms of Wizards of the Coast products_.
How many times have we seen a rules supplement lauded as "far better than Sword and Fist"? How many times have people compared Rokugan or Scarred Lands or Spycraft to the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, or even the largely yet-to-be-seen d20 Modern?
A lot.
Yes, Wizards has enormous resources that give them a tactical advantage in a popularity contest. But is the "advantage gap" between Wizards of the Coast and White Wolf (SSS) as significant as the gap between White Wolf and Bastion Press? Or the gap between Bastion Press and Ambient?
As any serious observer of the industry could tell you, there have been SEVERAL "d20 System" products that eclipse the quality of similar products put out by Wizards of the Coast. The words "Sword" and "Fist" should be enough to dissuade anyone familiar with the tenor of EN World conversation from asserting that the Wizards logo is some sort of assurance of popularity 'round these parts.
This last year has seen more products that "contend" with WotC products than the year before. As more and more companies become more and more competitive in the year to come, and as Wizards of the Coast continues to shrink its product offerings (in terms of distinct products if not in terms of pages), more and more companies are going to have a shot at these awards.
Let's not forget that the d20 System is still in its infancy. How long did it take for other publishers to introduce four-color printing in their products? How long did it take smaller publishers to seriously consider the value of using good editors, good cartographers, and good interior and cover artists?
I've seen many posts to this very message board about a specific company that seems to refuse to effectively edit the books in one of their product lines. What has that done to the reputation of that product line, at least insofar as EN World is concerned?
Keeping Wizards of the Coast in the same categories as other companies raises the bar of competition to the pinnacle of what the d20 industry has to offer. Yes, it's extremely difficult for a two-person company to compete with Wizards of the Coast.
But it's been done.
Both Malhavoc and Green Ronin amount to little more than "two-person companies," albeit ones with impressive lists of freelancers. They compete and compete well, as both the nominee list and winner lists prove. As time goes on, more and more companies will compete on their level, which as we can see by the results is the same "level" as Wizards of the Coast.
The last year has seen an astronomical increase in both production values and editing in the d20 System industry. A handful of companies now "compete" by having brought to market beautiful products that meet or exceed the value offered to customers by a Wizards product. It's foolish to assume, in my opinion, that this trend will turn around over the next year and the year after that.
Competing with the "best of the best" seems to me to be the point of the ENnies. Rebuilding the contest to remove the most "threatening" company, for whatever motivation, makes the ENnies the "best of the rest."
In addition to the Best Accessory category, in which Dungeon/Polyhedron took home a much-appreciated award, I had two non-WotC products nominated in the Best Monster Book accessory. Both lost to a non-WotC product with better distribution and better production values. And I'm ok with that, really. It feels good to compete against _all_ eligible products from _all_ the companies discussed by the visitors of the EN World supersite.
If Creature Collection 2 had been bumped up into a "Best Monster Book Published by a Big Company" category, or even worse excluded from the contest entirely due to its "unfair" production and distribution advantages, the other folks competing in that category would no longer be competing for the honors of "best" monster book in the entire d20 industry. As much as I'd love to be recognized as often as possible, an award for "Best, But" doesn't really have the same weight to it.
I urge Eric, Morrus, and the other folks working on the awards to allow Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, AEG and others to participate in the same award ceremony as "mid-tier" companies like Bastion, Green Ronin, and Atlas and "lower tier," smaller companies like Ambient, Hammerdog, Goodman Games and any number of pdf publishers.
To do anything else taints the awards with business concerns that I believe don't matter to most EN World visitors, who prefer to judge a product based on its creative merits rather than on the name of the company who published it.
--Erik Mona
A Polyhedron Perspective
Congratulations to anyone who actually made it through my last post.
For what it's worth, both Chris Thomasson and I were extremely humbled by the ENnies nomination and ultimate win for Dungeon/Polyhedron. Believe me, we took neither for granted, and everyone at Paizo Publishing is honored to have been recognized by the fans of the world's most vibrant and important d20 community.
I surely do hope that, no matter what changes are made to the awards next year, we'll be able to stack up our magazine against other accessories and/or periodicals. We believe very strongly in the value proposition we're offering with Dungeon/Polyhedron, and really appreciated the chance to compete in the EN World d20 System awards. Here's hoping we'll make it on the nomination list next year!
Thanks a million to Morrus, Eric, the judges and the voters. You guys are great!
--Erik
Congratulations to anyone who actually made it through my last post.
For what it's worth, both Chris Thomasson and I were extremely humbled by the ENnies nomination and ultimate win for Dungeon/Polyhedron. Believe me, we took neither for granted, and everyone at Paizo Publishing is honored to have been recognized by the fans of the world's most vibrant and important d20 community.
I surely do hope that, no matter what changes are made to the awards next year, we'll be able to stack up our magazine against other accessories and/or periodicals. We believe very strongly in the value proposition we're offering with Dungeon/Polyhedron, and really appreciated the chance to compete in the EN World d20 System awards. Here's hoping we'll make it on the nomination list next year!
Thanks a million to Morrus, Eric, the judges and the voters. You guys are great!
--Erik
MEG Hal
First Post
Lady Dragon said:
This would be an unfair award unless you saw the manuscript turned in, all our products are a team effort and a lot of editing and tweaking may occur to bring you the best product available.
As for the awards I was "hurt" at first that WoTC won most since they spend more on one item then we do all year (in some cases) BUT I do not want them out, what I want is to beat them! TG had some of the biggest applauds at the ENnies and that alone made me feel like a winner and next year as we are now with MEG I expect we will surprise a lot of people and get better with each product, so bring 'em on.....let WoTC stay!
Furn_Darkside
First Post
THG Hal said:
Haha- I love that spirit.
While I am not an award-appreciation kind of guy, I hope WOTC stays for similar reasons stated by Hal.
If/when the Ennies refines themselves and become a major event in the d20 community- then any form of exclusion is going to weaken the image of the awards.
Besides- not only does it give d20 companies a reason to work hard to compete with WOTC- it reminds WOTC they need to not grow complacent. They have to keep on their toes if they don't want to fall behind their competition.
We are not talking computers or cars here. This is about roleplaying games- a 2-person company can more easily compete with a corporation then in most markets out there.
I hope you all go and kick-some-butt.. though I know that just means less money in my wallet.
FD
