D&D 5E Bravely running away

[Lanefan]

Making it possible is still on the DM.

There's a village of several dozen Kobolds that the 1st-level PCs know about.

As DM, if the PCs decide to face-charge the place after intentionally alerting the whole village to their presence*, am I supposed to ban them from doing so?

* - this actually happened in my game. Of a party of six, three survived; only because they could outrun the Kobolds (who didn't pursue all that far, they were wise enough to let the survivors run into areas known to contain other hazards...)

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

There's a village of several dozen Kobolds that the 1st-level PCs know about.

As DM, if the PCs decide to face-charge the place after intentionally alerting the whole village to their presence*, am I supposed to ban them from doing so?

* - this actually happened in my game. Of a party of six, three survived; only because they could outrun the Kobolds (who didn't pursue all that far, they were wise enough to let the survivors run into areas known to contain other hazards...)

It would be reasonable to say "your characters would know they likely cannot handle a dozen hostile foes, your action would draw all of their attention - do you still want to do that?"

Much in the same way if a player wants their 1st level to jump off a 50ft cliff, you'd let them know they'd likely die of massive damage.

If these choose to kill themselves anyways after your warning, then its no longer on you.

 

[KYRON45]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

Even "Deadly" encounters should be easily within the capabilities of most parties.

5e is an attrition game. The choice of whether or not to flee is not made during combat - it is made between combats when the party is considering their overall daily resources (spell slots, hit dice, etc).

Character deaths and TPKs should result from the party's unwillingness to retreat+recover, not due to GMs setting encounter difficulties above recommended thresholds. Fleeing during combat is purposefully difficult - once you've entered combat, you must finish it, for good or ill. Attempting to flee will lead to death, always.

I've never seen or heard of this before.
The contract is that the DM presents a problem and players figure out what to do with that problem.
Sometimes the problem is easy. Sometimes the problem is hard. How you handle the problem is the foundation of the game.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

The contract is that the DM presents a problem and players figure out what to do with that problem.

As has been established in this thread - 5e does not have functional rules for a party fleeing a combat where they are outmatched. A DM forcing the PCs into an unwinnable combat encounter is no different than them saying "rocks fall, everyone dies", in 5e.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

As has been established in this thread - 5e does not have functional rules for a party fleeing a combat where they are outmatched. A DM forcing the PCs into an unwinnable combat encounter is no different than them saying "rocks fall, everyone dies", in 5e.

Something just occurred to me. In the new D&D movie, which came out firmly in the 5e era, the PCs run away quite often.
I presume a casual viewer which then becomes interested in the game will have the expectation that fleeing is a more than legitimate strategy when the odds are against the party...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Something just occurred to me. In the new D&D movie, which came out firmly in the 5e era, the PCs run away quite often.
I presume a casual viewer which then becomes interested in the game will have the expectation that fleeing is a more than legitimate strategy when the odds are against the party...

Excellent point, although that is one aspect of many in that movie that would be quite difficult to duplicate in an actual game of 5e without raw contrivance.

 

[KYRON45]

As has been established in this thread - 5e does not have functional rules for a party fleeing a combat where they are outmatched. A DM forcing the PCs into an unwinnable combat encounter is no different than them saying "rocks fall, everyone dies", in 5e.

Sometimes you have to write your own rules.
I don't play a simulation i play a narrative driven game.
If you stick hard and fast to all of the rules that are and aren't written.....you will find yourself backed into many different corners.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sometimes you have to write your own rules.
I don't play a simulation i play a narrative driven game.
If you stick hard and fast to all of the rules that are and aren't written.....you will find yourself backed into many different corners.

I do play as much of a simulation as I can manage, but I also believe that sometimes you have to write your own rules.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Sometimes you have to write your own rules.

Exactly - when your playstyle does not align with what a game's rules are designed for, you will have to create your own to patch the experience.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

From another thread, the topic of retreat has come up, it sounds like it might be difficult for a couple of reasons:

1. The Cyclical nature of initiative makes it difficult for the party to retreat (Ol' Tim the Timid can still run off on his own though).
2. Movement speeds are largely the same between PCs and NPCs/Monsters, if you run away by dashing, the enemy can mostly keep up.

The only time I can recall players retreating in my game was during a session which was played more narratively rather than with the actual rules, so it doesn't really count (it was a hit and run on an opposing army's baggage train). They did also manage to escape engaging in a combat using a skill challenge, which again doesn't count, and perhaps that's what I'd switch to once the players discuss that they want to retreat, but it'd be interesting to hear what others would do.

A great irony I like to mention to folks who have certain strong opinions about certain things:

I have run away from more combats in 4e than any other edition of D&D, despite it being the edition of D&D that I have played the least. And that's even if you separate 3.X from Pathfinder as though they were different games. And the simple reason is, I knew I could survive running away, I knew how clearly outmatched the party had become, and I knew that the costs of pursuing total victory were not worthwhile.

So, to other DMs, if in the middle of combat players decide they should retreat, how would you run it?

I would fully support their choice and talk with them about what they want to do. I would actively avoid being punitive or harsh with any initial consequences unless the players/PCs already knew the consequences would have to be severe. E.g. "we're rescuing a friendly NPC from their scheduled execution" is....not gonna go well for the friendly NPC if they just abandon them there.

I am a huge believer in the idea that DMs teach players to behave in specific ways through how they give consequences, good and bad, to player choices. So, for example, if an NPC begs for mercy and promises not to do further harm to the PCs, I have never once had such an NPC betray their promise. Likewise, if the PCs ever begged for mercy from genuinely persuadable NPCs (e.g. not raving cultists or otherwise people who cannot be reasoned with), those NPCs would honor that request and expect to not be betrayed.

Not because I'm totally against ever doing such things, mind, but because I know that if I do that excessively, I will be teaching my players, "Mercy is a sucker's game, it always hurts you more than it helps you, so you should never show mercy, and your enemies certainly won't." It's straight up teaching them to be murder-hobos. I don't want murder-hobos. I want players who think critically about the moral and personal costs of their choices. That means these choices need to be worth making.

Anyway, back to running away: Support their choices. Give them reasonable risks and consequences, but be gentle especially if they're only on the first or second ever retreat. They'll strongly take to heart any lessons you teach, intentionally or accidentally, during those early experiences. Show them that "live to fight another day" is a valid tactic, that discretion really can be the better part of valor, etc.

Teach your players to play the way you want them to play, and you will find them eagerly working with you to make the game experience you want them (and yourself!) to have.