D&D 5E Bravely running away

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

So, to other DMs, if in the middle of combat players decide they should retreat, how would you run it?

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

Even "Deadly" encounters should be easily within the capabilities of most parties.

5e is an attrition game. The choice of whether or not to flee is not made during combat - it is made between combats when the party is considering their overall daily resources (spell slots, hit dice, etc).

Character deaths and TPKs should result from the party's unwillingness to retreat+recover, not due to GMs setting encounter difficulties above recommended thresholds. Fleeing during combat is purposefully difficult - once you've entered combat, you must finish it, for good or ill. Attempting to flee will lead to death, always.

 

[Distracted DM]

And that is the crux of the issue for most groups.

A hell hound has a speed of 50. So, a PC engaged with a hellhound runs, prokoving an OA, but survives and moves & Dashes 60 feet. Meanwhile the hellhound moves 50 feet, and breathes with a 15' cone, hitting the PC. The PC lives and runs again, the hellhound moves again and either breathes again (if it recharged), or dashes to get in front of the PC and engage them again. Now, the PC provokes another OA, and it continues. The PC also has to worry about exhaustion because of dashing, where the hellhound doesn't have to dash every round to keep up.

You are better of standing and fighting or surrendering.

Without magic to enable your escape, even cunning action won't likely help until you can break away enough to find someplace to hide and manage to beat the DC 20 passive perception for the hellhound (due to keen senses).


It is very hard. But then again, if you ever played tag, usually someone does get tagged. Escape isn't as easy as some people like to think IMO...

One point I noticed in the Chase rules, there aren't attacks of opportunity. Doesn't help much, just fyi.

But yeah, without house-ruling it, retreat from a losing combat isn't a viable option. So ... House-rules.

I've used the 13A Flee rules, and if I wasn't sure of what a campaign loss in that instance would be I've used a 4e-style skill challenge or A5E group skill check a la exploration challenges to see if they lose equipment, lose time, get lost, go from the frying pan into the fire, etc.

 

[TiQuinn]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

I don’t agree that that’s part of the contract at all. If you are having multiple encounters per day, oftentimes it is the party that is pushing things and getting into an encounter above their heads, I.E. their current resources versus the encounter being unbalanced. Similarly bad rolls can turn a relatively typical encounter into one where the PCs feel they need to flee.

The decision to retreat should not be seen as a failure of the DM to manage encounters, or be a fault of the PCs. It’s a viable tactic, and often the smart move versus trying to push on.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

Even "Deadly" encounters should be easily within the capabilities of most parties.

5e is an attrition game. The choice of whether or not to flee is not made during combat - it is made between combats when the party is considering their overall daily resources (spell slots, hit dice, etc).

Character deaths and TPKs should result from the party's unwillingness to retreat+recover, not due to GMs setting encounter difficulties above recommended thresholds. Fleeing during combat is purposefully difficult - once you've entered combat, you must finish it, for good or ill. Attempting to flee will lead to death, always.

Where is all of that written? Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[DarkCrisis]

"Better part of valor! Better part of valor!"

 

[MarkB]

The player have a choice of either leaving them and surviving or trying to drag them along and risk being killed. This is a feature of a roleplaying game, not a bug.

It's really puzzling that people sometimes bring up arguments like that: "Well, (insert rule) sucks because it forces the players to take decisions which have lasting consequences"

Don't know, maybe it's just my age showing.

Difficult in-character decisions are one thing, but this is you looking at the friend across the table from you, and deciding for them whether they still get to play their character or not. That's a whole different level of difficult.

 

[Distracted DM]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

Yeah that's.. not the case. If a fight is totally unwinnable it probably shouldn't be an actual roll initiative-combat, and the GM has hopefully telegraphed this.

But the GM designing all combats to be winnable? What if you don't design combats at all? And parties are so different, what encounter math are you using to figure out if a fight is "winnable?" Deadly is usually a handy win.

But I think the problem I had here is just the way you phrased it... I think you meant "shouldn't have level 3 characters roll initiative and fight it out with an ancient red dragon." In other words, a GM shouldn't be trying to use their power of having any monster show up to just roast and toast a party with no warning? Cuz we can agree on that.

 

[TiQuinn]

But I think the problem I had here is just the way you phrased it... I think you meant "shouldn't have level 3 characters roll initiative and fight it out with an ancient red dragon." In other words, a GM shouldn't be trying to use their power of having any monster show up to just roast and toast a party with no warning? Cuz we can agree on that.

Exactly this. I’m not picturing 4 PCs against a dragon in this scenario. I’m picturing 4 PCs fighting against a group of hobgoblins and the fight goes south and they decide they need to retreat.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Page 81 of the DMG has clear guidelines on how to design encounters and how many of them to give your party. Nothing in the DMG addresses creating encounters which are too strong or unwinnable for your party. The hardest difficulty is Deadly - "A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat."

That is, even deadly encounters are still designed to be winnable.

 

[Distracted DM]

Page 81 of the DMG has clear guidelines on how to design encounters and how many of them to give your party. Nothing in the DMG addresses creating encounters which are too strong or unwinnable for your party. The hardest difficulty is Deadly - "A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat."

That is, even deadly encounters are still designed to be winnable.

Yeah but have you used those guidelines? Something rated Deadly is typically a handy win, no deaths.