Breaking Limits (An alternative to the Daily attack power mechanic)

Fanaelialae

Legend
Some of my players like Daily powers, some don't care for their limited usage. As their DM, I'm constantly fiddling with various mechanics in a hopeless, never ending quest to keep all of them happy all of the time.

The latest idea I've come up with has to do with changing daily attacks so that they are no longer strictly limited to once per day. The reason for this being, one of the main complaints I hear about dailies is that they don't feel like a significant part of the character since they're rarely seen (unlike at-wills and encounters which are used in every encounter).


Limit Breaks

- Daily attack powers become Limit Break powers instead.

- Limit Break powers require an Activation roll before they can be used, similar to a Recharge power except that Limit Break powers begin each encounter Uncharged and can only be used once per encounter. A Limit Break can only be used if it is Charged.

- If a character has at least one Uncharged Limit Break, at the beginning of his turn that player rolls an Activation die (1d10). On a maximum roll of the Activation die (10), one of that character's Limit Breaks becomes Charged, and therefore usable. Note that the player only rolls one Activation die when granted an Activation roll, regardless of how many Limit Breaks the PC has.


Additional Ideas

- In order to grant greater access to dailies for harder fights, players can make an Activation roll any time their PC is bloodied or knocked to 0. To push fights that are a foregone conclusion, you could allow a PC or all PCs to make an Activation roll when a non-minion is bloodied or killed (I lean toward the group option because, although it is more powerful, the former option favors Strikers quite a bit). Other criteria might also grant an extra Activation roll, such as expending the last of your Encounter powers, being hit by nasty conditions like stun or dominate, or granting all PCs an Activation roll when a comrade dies.

- Obviously, this approach means that the availability of dailies is largely determined by luck. While that can't entirely be helped, it might be somewhat mitigated by allowing a player to use a standard action to Charge a Limit Break. A second action of the appropriate kind is required to use the power.

- Players might, at their discretion, be allowed to designate some Daily attack powers as Daily attack powers (rather than Limit Break powers). This allows those dailies which are highly conditional (of which there are a few, though not many) to be available whenever such triggers arise, at the cost of being usable only once per day. A more extreme approach might be to allow any Daily attack or utility power to be designated as either Daily or Limit Break when selected. I hesitate to suggest it though, since a cleric who prioritized having Cure X Wounds in every fight could make a party last far beyond their intended encounter day.

- Of course, since some dailies have borderline gamebreaking effects if usable at whim (surgeless healing), it's probably best to restrict their use to encounters only. Alternatively, it might be up to the DM to determine whether a Daily would be okay to use more than once per day (and therefore available as a Limit Break). In that case, it might be okay to say that out of combat a PC can use a Limit Break with 5 rounds of preparation.


Obviously, this system would need a lot of playtesting before it could be considered balanced (if it can be balanced at all). My initial choice of a d10 for the activation die assumes roughly 10 combats per level, which makes it likely that each PC will have an opportunity to open an encounter with a daily once per level. The terminology could probably use a bit of sprucing up as well.

One thing I like about it is that this system effectively eliminates encounter nova. While my players are pretty good at avoiding the 15 minute workday, it can be a little annoying when they manage to scrounge enough dailies to completely decimate what was intended to be a difficult boss encounter.

From a fluff perspective, Limit Breaks could be described as gathering enough magical energy for a big spell or analyzing an opponent's technique for an exploitable weakness.
 

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The latest idea I've come up with has to do with changing daily attacks so that they are no longer strictly limited to once per day. The reason for this being, one of the main complaints I hear about dailies is that they don't feel like a significant part of the character since they're rarely seen (unlike at-wills and encounters which are used in every encounter).

I'd suggest you simply help your players choose and use effective, battle-changing dailies. There's a lot of dailies which will simply disappear in a squeak of "I caused a little bit of extra damage". There are plenty which change the flow of a fight entirely, and people will remember it. The fact that a character busted out his daily will matter if the daily is used effectively. The wizard busts out flaming sphere, and for the entire rest of the fight, that's his attack. The rogue pops knockout and in comes the fighter and his brute-striking executioner axe to finish the job.

Make sure your players talk to each other about getting those dailies the spotlight time they deserve. Making a daily hit matters, and it's worth doing things to make sure it hits.
 

I'd suggest you simply help your players choose and use effective, battle-changing dailies. There's a lot of dailies which will simply disappear in a squeak of "I caused a little bit of extra damage". There are plenty which change the flow of a fight entirely, and people will remember it. The fact that a character busted out his daily will matter if the daily is used effectively. The wizard busts out flaming sphere, and for the entire rest of the fight, that's his attack. The rogue pops knockout and in comes the fighter and his brute-striking executioner axe to finish the job.

Make sure your players talk to each other about getting those dailies the spotlight time they deserve. Making a daily hit matters, and it's worth doing things to make sure it hits.

Appreciate the advice. :)

However, one of these guys has played both the warden and the barbarian. He likes their dailies a little better than those of many of the other classes but still finds them overall unsatisfying.

This was not plan A, believe me. We've been playing 4e since it came out and one of the first things I tried was talking to him about the upside and effective use of dailies. Considering that neither warden polymorphing nor barbarian rage changed his opinion, I really don't think there's anything that I can tell him at this point that will do so. He's not an ineffective player, he just doesn't care for the daily mechanic (though he adores the at will and encounter mechanics).

So, I'm seeing if I can come up with a house rule that will allow all of my players to be happy with their dailies. For all I know my players who like dailies may hate this idea (in which case I won't be using it), but I feel obligated to at least attempt to come up with something they can all be happy with (and is reasonably balanced).
 

So, I'm seeing if I can come up with a house rule that will allow all of my players to be happy with their dailies. For all I know my players who like dailies will hate this idea (in which case I won't be using it), but I feel obligated to at least attempt to come up with something they can all be happy with (and is reasonably balanced).

Fair enough. Given that I've found that effectively used dailies are the primary thing I remember about combats, I figured I'd take a stab at seeing what the root problem was.

Incidentally, have you seen the essentials previews? The knight, slayer and thief are all daily-free and intended to be compatible with non-essentials classes.

One final possibility: depending on what level your campaign is currently at, you could make a rule that allows players to select the same daily multiple times when they choose powers. That would allow someone to spend the same daily power in 4 encounters.

Personally I don't really like the look of your houserule, primarily because I personally enjoy using my dailies to best effect, which means that there's usually some perfect point during the adventuring day to blow them. Under your system, I imagine I would lose that tactical aspect: I'd simply blow a daily whenever I charged one.
 

My advice is not to change the daily power structure for those who like it. Instead, give this limit break option for players who don't like the daily power structure. I's perfectly fine for two characters to have different power structures: for example, most psionic classes don't have encounter attack powers, and some Essentials classes will not have daily powers.

Mechanics-wise, your proposed 1 in 10 chance of activiation per round means that the character will, on average, be able to use a daily power once every 10 combat rounds. Depending on your expected number of combats per day and rounds per combat, this number may be a little high or low. If, for example, your group averages four combats of five rounds each between extended rests, the limit break character will be able to use on average two daily powers over this period. This may be too many if the other characters have only one daily power, or too little if the other characters have three or more. A better approach may be to use a d20, and to assign one number to each daily power.

Whatever you decide, I suggest you playtest it by having characters who use limit breaks and characters with the standard daily power structure in the same party to see whether it works out in play.
 

I don't like the randomness... However, there are two "cinematic" things I would like to emulate in my games :
1) When someone know how to do something, he can do it more than once per day.
2) in most combat, both the heroes and the villains don't use their "big guns" at the start of the fight, so we can have some kind of escalation in the battle of powers.

I'm thinking about how to do that... I have figured two solutions, which I did not implement for now :
1) daily (and encounters) are taxing for the body and mind. If you use them more than you should, you lose HP. For the martial powers, this may look strange, but I explain as "those tricks works great once : the next time your enemy are prepared and able to take advantage of the long and predictable routine of your attack"
2) To use the "big guns" require a bit of preparation. To use an encounter power, you need to have used an at-will first ( or to have spent a standard action to watch and prepare your attack against the unsuspecting enemy you are about to ambush). To use a daily, you need to have used an at-will and an encounter power first (or to have spent tow standard action to watch and prepare). I remember that Pathfinder use this kind of warm-up for some feats, and that's the source of my inspiration.

I haven't tested those two, especially the first option because I don't know how many HP a "transgression" should inflict upon the character... However, I think those two house rules are close to what you are trying to do, without nerfing too much the players who were happy with the current rules.
 

How 'bout this for a house rule:

At each milestone, you recharge two daily attack powers granted by your class or paragon path. These daily powers are recharged in the order you expended them. You cannot use more than one such powers per encounter; after level 15 you may use two per encounter. After an extended rest, one such daily power of your choice is considered expended.

For short days, this is weaker. For long days, this is slightly stronger on average, but with a weaker peak power - and you can't game the system by always recharging the strongest power. The reason to consider one power expended at the start of the day is in particular to keep this house rule somewhat balanced at low levels. The rule uses milestones even though recharging one per encounter might be better since encounters are kind of defined by short rests (i.e. players) and milestones require "significant" encounters.
 

I like the idea of using limit breaks instead of daily powers.

Unfortunately too many classes are balanced around being able to bust out a daily at the beginning of combat. Wardens, Berserkers, and any summoning class (wizard, artificer, druid) are going to be greatly hampered if they can't guarantee popping a daily when they need it. What's the point of using your daily to enter a stance when there's only a round or two left of mopping up to do?

Same goes for basically any AOE daily. Unless your DM uses waves of minions, theres no reason to waste your daily power selection if it only becomes available after all the enemies are dead.

How about not allowing the use of dailies until the PC has been bloodied? And then they can use a daily immediately as a free action. This would be a bit unfair because defenders would get to use more dailies than other classes...but at least it offers more opportunity than making daily usage totally random.

I think in the end though you'd be better off waiting for essentials to come out and stick with MBA-enhancers.
 

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