D&D 5E (2024) Breaking The Eldritch Knight (Eberron)

[Silam]

I was re-thinking about this thread and I realized something. No doubt obvious to some, but somehow I hadn’t realized the full implications. Maybe it deserves a separate thread but I’ll dump it here for now…

So… what you’re doing in this build is a pure EK all the way until level 20, which gets at most one 4th level spell at level 19, but the big unlock is that as soon as level 7 you get this once per short rest level 4 slot (and eventually level 5 slot).

Now, I know you dissed theory crafting in the OP and I can appreciate your sentiment … but I still want to indulge in a bit of it

Before this Potent Dragonmark feat came out, it used to be the case that the only spells you could ever have prepared were those:

1. Coming from a pure class
2. Coming from feats (level 1 or 2 at most)
3. Coming from a species (e.g., High Elf, again level 1 or 2 at most)

So if you multi-classed, you could get higher slots, but not higher prepared spells. But Potent Dragonmark breaks these precedents, since at the cost of 2 feats (including one origin feat) you get a bunch of prepared spells, all the way to 5th level.

This means for builds which depend on a few specific high level spells (such as the one in this thread, with CME) you need not actually take 7 or 9 levels of a full spellcasting class to get them, but you could still get plenty of high level slots to pump into those spells even though none of your classes is actually high enough level to let you prepare them.

As a dumb example, let’s think of a fairly innefective build which nonetheless gets 20 full spellcasting levels: Druid 4, Cleric 4, Wizard 4, Sorc 4, Bard 4. These classes allow preparing only 2nd level spells, and yet, with Mark of Storm and Potent Dragonmark, the character can cast a 9th level CME! This build can not only cast a 5th level CME once per short rest thanks to the PDM feat, but it also has a whopping 12 slots of level 4 and above per long rest that it could cast CME with! In a sense, it’s a one-trick pony, but that pony can really do its trick over and over again

I have a feeling this will open up the possibility of new multi-class builds that were not possible before. I have not thought of what these builds might be exactly, but I do think it’s kind of a mini-breakthrough in theory crafting.

Again, apologies for hi-jacking the thread and for those for whom all that was already so obvious

 

[Ancoulainn]

I was re-thinking about this thread and I realized something. No doubt obvious to some, but somehow I hadn’t realized the full implications. Maybe it deserves a separate thread but I’ll dump it here for now…

So… what you’re doing in this build is a pure EK all the way until level 20, which gets at most one 4th level spell at level 19, but the big unlock is that as soon as level 7 you get this once per short rest level 4 slot (and eventually level 5 slot).

Now, I know you dissed theory crafting in the OP and I can appreciate your sentiment … but I still want to indulge in a bit of it

Before this Potent Dragonmark feat came out, it used to be the case that the only spells you could ever have prepared were those:

1. Coming from a pure class
2. Coming from feats (level 1 or 2 at most)
3. Coming from a species (e.g., High Elf, again level 1 or 2 at most)

So if you multi-classed, you could get higher slots, but not higher prepared spells. But Potent Dragonmark breaks these precedents, since at the cost of 2 feats (including one origin feat) you get a bunch of prepared spells, all the way to 5th level.

This means for builds which depend on a few specific high level spells (such as the one in this thread, with CME) you need not actually take 7 or 9 levels of a full spellcasting class to get them, but you could still get plenty of high level slots to pump into those spells even though none of your classes is actually high enough level to let you prepare them.

As a dumb example, let’s think of a fairly innefective build which nonetheless gets 20 full spellcasting levels: Druid 4, Cleric 4, Wizard 4, Sorc 4, Bard 4. These classes allow preparing only 2nd level spells, and yet, with Mark of Storm and Potent Dragonmark, the character can cast a 9th level CME! This build can not only cast a 5th level CME once per short rest thanks to the PDM feat, but it also has a whopping 12 slots of level 4 and above per long rest that it could cast CME with! In a sense, it’s a one-trick pony, but that pony can really do its trick over and over again

I have a feeling this will open up the possibility of new multi-class builds that were not possible before. I have not thought of what these builds might be exactly, but I do think it’s kind of a mini-breakthrough in theory crafting.

Again, apologies for hi-jacking the thread and for those for whom all that was already so obvious

Upfront, I have not exactly theorycrafted this, but if I wanted to build something like this and entirely focus on the pony and nothing else, then I would want something that has a) access to CME, b) access to a 9th level slot, and c) as many attacks as possible. The two options that come to mind is the Valor Bard with Warlock dip to get to 5 attacks (1 attack + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast) or one level of Fighter with the rest Bladesinger for 4 attacks (Nick property + Dual Wielder). The first option would have better damage output, but the second option would have better defensives with Song of Defense. You could probably go even a step further with the first option and go Warlock 1/Fighter 1/Valor Bard 18 and get to 6 attacks (1 attack + 1 Nick + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast). But I think those builds have been done and none of them relied on the Dragonmark.

 

[Zardnaar]

I was re-thinking about this thread and I realized something. No doubt obvious to some, but somehow I hadn’t realized the full implications. Maybe it deserves a separate thread but I’ll dump it here for now…

So… what you’re doing in this build is a pure EK all the way until level 20, which gets at most one 4th level spell at level 19, but the big unlock is that as soon as level 7 you get this once per short rest level 4 slot (and eventually level 5 slot).

Now, I know you dissed theory crafting in the OP and I can appreciate your sentiment … but I still want to indulge in a bit of it

Before this Potent Dragonmark feat came out, it used to be the case that the only spells you could ever have prepared were those:

1. Coming from a pure class
2. Coming from feats (level 1 or 2 at most)
3. Coming from a species (e.g., High Elf, again level 1 or 2 at most)

So if you multi-classed, you could get higher slots, but not higher prepared spells. But Potent Dragonmark breaks these precedents, since at the cost of 2 feats (including one origin feat) you get a bunch of prepared spells, all the way to 5th level.

This means for builds which depend on a few specific high level spells (such as the one in this thread, with CME) you need not actually take 7 or 9 levels of a full spellcasting class to get them, but you could still get plenty of high level slots to pump into those spells even though none of your classes is actually high enough level to let you prepare them.

As a dumb example, let’s think of a fairly innefective build which nonetheless gets 20 full spellcasting levels: Druid 4, Cleric 4, Wizard 4, Sorc 4, Bard 4. These classes allow preparing only 2nd level spells, and yet, with Mark of Storm and Potent Dragonmark, the character can cast a 9th level CME! This build can not only cast a 5th level CME once per short rest thanks to the PDM feat, but it also has a whopping 12 slots of level 4 and above per long rest that it could cast CME with! In a sense, it’s a one-trick pony, but that pony can really do its trick over and over again

I have a feeling this will open up the possibility of new multi-class builds that were not possible before. I have not thought of what these builds might be exactly, but I do think it’s kind of a mini-breakthrough in theory crafting.

Again, apologies for hi-jacking the thread and for those for whom all that was already so obvious

Heh youre getting it.

Such a build could also be built around scorcimg ray/spellfire Flare.

 

[Zardnaar]

Upfront, I have not exactly theorycrafted this, but if I wanted to build something like this and entirely focus on the pony and nothing else, then I would want something that has a) access to CME, b) access to a 9th level slot, and c) as many attacks as possible. The two options that come to mind is the Valor Bard with Warlock dip to get to 5 attacks (1 attack + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast) or one level of Fighter with the rest Bladesinger for 4 attacks (Nick property + Dual Wielder). The first option would have better damage output, but the second option would have better defensives with Song of Defense. You could probably go even a step further with the first option and go Warlock 1/Fighter 1/Valor Bard 18 and get to 6 attacks (1 attack + 1 Nick + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast). But I think those builds have been done and none of them relied on the Dragonmark.

The bard build has MAD and its a theorycraft build.

You suck at lower levels. EK is good right from get go.

 

[Silam]

Upfront, I have not exactly theorycrafted this, but if I wanted to build something like this and entirely focus on the pony and nothing else, then I would want something that has a) access to CME, b) access to a 9th level slot, and c) as many attacks as possible. The two options that come to mind is the Valor Bard with Warlock dip to get to 5 attacks (1 attack + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast) or one level of Fighter with the rest Bladesinger for 4 attacks (Nick property + Dual Wielder). The first option would have better damage output, but the second option would have better defensives with Song of Defense. You could probably go even a step further with the first option and go Warlock 1/Fighter 1/Valor Bard 18 and get to 6 attacks (1 attack + 1 Nick + 4 beams of Eldritch Blast). But I think those builds have been done and none of them relied on the Dragonmark.

Yep… If the criteria are just access to CME, 9th level slots and as many attacks as possible, then I would think about a build along the lines of: Fighter 2 (for AS), Warlock 1 (for EB), Bard 10 (for Magical Secrets: CME and Steel Wind Strike), and the rest Sorcerer 7 (for Quicken). Then the combat goes something like this:

• Round 1: Bonus Action Quickened 9th level CME; Attack action which subs one attack for EB, one Nick weapon attack, and then a 2nd weapon attack (from Nick); Action Surge for another Attack action of one EB + one off-hand weapon attack (11 attacks total).
• Round 2+: BA Quickened Steel Wind Strike (6 attacks); Attack action of one EB, one weapon attack, one more off-hand weapon attack (12 attacks total).

It gets ugly fast. You could also replace one level of Sorc with a level of Paladin and still get to 9th level spell, just to get access to the concentration-free Divine Favor, for another 1d4 on these gazillion attacks… but in practice that would only come into play during combats when you’re out of Steel Wind Strikes, or out of Sorcery Points, otherwise it makes no sense to use a BA for anything else than Quickened SWS.

I’m kind of repulsed by how ugly this build gets… so many frickin dices. But also, this build doesn’t leverage the new insight that the PDM feat uniquely grants high level prepared spells. So… either it doesn’t actually matter, or else there are other, weirder builds out there, jam packed with low class levels

 

[Ancoulainn]

The bard build has MAD and its a theorycraft build.

It's SAD because of Pact of the Blade. You just delay getting to Extra Attack by one level.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's SAD because of Pact of the Blade. You just delay getting to Extra Attack by one level.

Problem is Valor bard is already 1 level behind.

Extra attack at 7th level is crap (VB6, warlock 1).

What feat did you take at bard 4?

 

[Ancoulainn]

Problem is Valor bard is already 1 level behind.

Not a problem really. Like Bladesingers, they are full casters.

Extra attack at 7th level is crap (VB6, warlock 1).

What feat did you take at bard 4?

Spell Sniper to cast Eldritch Blast from melee without disadvantage. But depending on whether you want to dive right into the core mechanic of the build at Warlock 1/Bard 6 or are willing to wait two more levels, you can also delay Spell Sniper until level 8.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not a problem really. Like Bladesingers, they are full casters.

Spell Sniper to cast Eldritch Blast from melee without disadvantage. But depending on whether you want to dive right into the core mechanic of the build at Warlock 1/Bard 6 or are willing to wait two more levels, you can also delay Spell Sniper until level 8.

You're not a full caster you MC with warlock.

Now youre a spell level behind and two levels behind for extra attack. You do faint an invocation and lvl 1 warlock spell slot

And your damage is anemic. We know what the good level 7 strikers are.

You're new here we did the Valor bard build. Its crap unless you're parachuting into a level 12 or 13 game.

You picked the wrong feat BTW.

At level 9 what feat are you picking? Assuming VB8/Warlock1.

 

[Ancoulainn]

You're not a full caster you MC with warlock.

Bards are still full casters. And I didn't know you belong to the faction that doesn't consider Warlocks full casters.

Now youre a spell level behind and two levels behind for extra attack.

Not really. Eldritch Blast goes by character level, not class level, so there is a time period when casting Eldritch Blast is better.

And your damage is anemic. We know what the good level 7 strikers are.

Do you? Do you really?

You're new here we did the Valor bard build. Its crap unless you're parachuting into a level 13 game.

Show me your build and I judge myself. I need to see that you knew what you were doing.

You picked the wrong feat BTW.

Not really, no. You're wrong if you think that. One reason why I question the statements above. But enlighten me: What do you think is the right feat?

At level 9 what feat are you picking?

Probably War Caster. Now let's see if you have something to complain about that.