Breaking the Rules of Combat

[Saagael]

(Lots of text, sorry in advanced)

Epic tier is hard.

I'm running a game with six level 26 characters, and have found out that epic tier, while fun, is challenging, to say the least. In fact, to avoid the "grind to the finish" syndrome that my group seemed to be suffering from, I sped up time/level to about 4 sessions, or 2 combats + roleplaying, along with utilizing every grind-reducing idea out there:

* 2/3 hit points, double damage
* Reworking monsters with daze/stun/dominate effects
* Using lots of low level monsters
* Using monsters with low defenses and high attack bonuses/damage.

I've tried all of it, and it works for keeping things quick. But does "quick" really equate to "fun"? I found that it does not. Like removing a bandage, getting through combat faster doesn't mean higher quality story-telling, it just means the pain doesn't last as long.

However, I have found a way around this issue, one that I think would work well in all tiers, but I find almost necessary in epic. My solution is to break the rules of combat.

I don't just mean go against the DMG when building monsters, I mean literally breaking the rules and using entirely new or modified mechanics for combats.

For example, I built a Conquest of Nerath-style system for mass combat when the players were commanding an army. It was a long battle (lasted 3 sessions), but was new enough that it didn't seem boring. However I found that to be too much of a change, as the players found it hard to grok the rules of.

Later, when traveling to Celestia, the players faced a colossus that was 4 times the maximum size of 4e monsters (8 squares x 8 squares). This forced the players to spend their actions climbing/flying/jumping around to get to the weak points on the colossus, rather than just focus-firing. The monster was built something like a half monster, half trap, with different body sections, and attacks that would target characters in different areas of its body, or the floor, or flying. The whole encounter was just as much skill challenge as it was normal combat.

Most recently, I pitched the characters against a high-level solo dragon. On its own, the dragon was pretty weak, but to make the fight more interesting, I added mini-skill challenges at certain HP threshholds. For example, at 0 hit points, the dragon grabbed a character in its mouth and started flying out over the mountain-side. The players had to come up with a way to save the character using skill checks (as opposed to powers), within 1 round, or the character would take massive damage (most likely die). From what feedback I got, this was well received, and felt a lot like quick-time events that are used in video game cut-scenes. For one round, all creatures except for the players stop, and they use skills to prevent something nasty from happening.

This last one worked out very well. It gave the players narrative freedom to do whatever they thought would be the most awesome/helpful in a way that wasn't limited by powers. I would suggest all big-name bosses have something like this at the end of the fight, since falling to 0 hit points, to me, is anticlimactic.

Since I've got half a tier to go before the players hit level 30, I'd like to hear what ways you have broken the rules of combat, or changed things up for the better? I've got some big combats coming up, and could use all the help I could get, and I'm sure other DMs could use some inspiration as well!

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm actually rather nervous about epic tier, because I'm going to eventually have to write epic tier adventures for ZEITGEIST, and I don't know how to handle the combat.

 

[Saagael]

I'm actually rather nervous about epic tier, because I'm going to eventually have to write epic tier adventures for ZEITGEIST, and I don't know how to handle the combat.

I've found that combat is best used sparsely in epic tier. Big flashy combats with lots of facets and interesting things going on are the focus, while lesser combats can be easily run as skill challenges, or even just a few checks. As I mentioned, I find the best way to keep things interesting is to add things to combats that make them different.

For example I'll use my latest experiment: HP threshhold triggering skill challenges.

What I did is make it so that when an enemy (a boss enemy, preferably solo, but it should work in any combat) hits a certain hit point (2/3 total, 1/3 total, 0, etc), the players go into a "cut scene mode". All other combatants are ignored, and only the players act.

At the start of this cut scene, the enemy/ies to something deadly. For my combat, I had a dragon pin and try to crush and eat a PC. The players have 1 round to solve this issue using skills, describing how they go about their actions. In my case, there were 6 PCs:

* Sorcerer was pinned under the dragon. He used intimidate, trying to make the dragon think twice about eating him.
* Warlock bluffed, telling the sorcerer to "Use your 'burrow flesh' ability!"
* Warlord and Monk charged the dragon to throw him off balance, using athletics.
* Swordmage tried to restrain the dragon's movement, using arcana.
* The warden used endurance to play "tug of war" with the dragon's tail.

They all succeeded, so they got the dragon off the sorcerer in time. Since they all succeeded (no failures), I gave them an extra standard action on their next turn (kind of OP, but for this combat it was okay). With the extra standard actions, they took the dragon from 2/3 HP to 0 in one round, triggering his last cut-scene event, which was similar, only it resulted in the dragon being knocked out.

Results from this experiment are that its best used twice in a fight. Once when bloodied, once when at 0 hp, and only for big encounters. This could be adapted for any situation. The only requirement is that there be some metric for how much the players have "beat" an encounter.

 

[corwyn77]

I'm actually rather nervous about epic tier, because I'm going to eventually have to write epic tier adventures for ZEITGEIST, and I don't know how to handle the combat.

Coincidentally, I'm a bit nervous about entering into Epic running War of the Burning Sky. When I saw that 5 of 12 of the published adventures were Epic I quickly decided to adjust the progression to 4/5/3 since the consensus of our group, including myself, is that we like Paragon the most, Epic the least.

Some of the OP's ideas are interesting and I'll have to consider some of them. My problem is that I'm already often finding running combat uninteresting since the PCs have so many powers with which to, if not nullify, hamper elites or solos to the point that I'm just rolling dice and I'm not sure how to deal with that. I've had elites not act until they were the only foe and solos spend half the fight dazed and/or prone.

 

[ashockney]

Saagael

I don't think you're breaking the rules system, at all! I think you're building it precisely as intended. An epic campaign (in any edition) should include modules that are:

EPIC Settings
EPIC Situations
EPIC Villains
EPIC Odds
EPIC Consequences

You have to think that these guys are veritable GODS with followers/minions/resources among the widest and richest imaginable. This in a medieval fantasy setting where magic weaves into the fabric of all things! What would be something so great that it would draw one heroes attention, let alone the entire band of heroes at the same time? I think the recent Avengers movie was a terrific example of this.

Here's an example from a recent module I ran for epic players, based upon Queen of the Demonweb Pits.

Setting - Llolth's High Priestess Fane/Llolth's home plane
Situation - Llolth finalizing plans to genocide elves of Cormanthor
Villains - High Priestesses/Yochlols/Powerful Demons/Driders/Llolth who must be defeated three separate times (transforms in power each defeat)
Odds - the players were outnumbered 5:1 to 10:1 in most encounters
Consequences - Each ROUND a players mortality was risked, failure in stopping Llolth meant the genocide of the elves

As you suggested, imagine skill challenges for setting, situation, and consequences CONSTANTLY through and between battles. They were walking deities however with magnificent resources so they sliced through it like butter. One of the first things I think "breaks" the system is the "odds". You can all but COMPLETELY IGNORE the recommended challenge levels. These parties are AMAZINGLY resilient and if you crack their defenses they have tons of ways to recover, quickly. Finally, I agree with you, and I COMPLETELY broke the rules surrounding the big bad (Llolth) at the end, and took a page from the old MMORPG scenario of having to fight her THREE SEPARATE TIMES, in three MORE CHALLENGING locations, in three SEPARATE forms! What was amazing to me...this is how the ORIGINAL module for Queen reads as written by EGG. Brilliant!

Good gaming!

 

[Saagael]

Coincidentally, I'm a bit nervous about entering into Epic running War of the Burning Sky. When I saw that 5 of 12 of the published adventures were Epic I quickly decided to adjust the progression to 4/5/3 since the consensus of our group, including myself, is that we like Paragon the most, Epic the least.

Some of the OP's ideas are interesting and I'll have to consider some of them. My problem is that I'm already often finding running combat uninteresting since the PCs have so many powers with which to, if not nullify, hamper elites or solos to the point that I'm just rolling dice and I'm not sure how to deal with that. I've had elites not act until they were the only foe and solos spend half the fight dazed and/or prone.

With regards to elites/solos being locked down, I have that issue as well. To deal with it, I have a few ways around it:

1) Solos remove all negative effects on them when bloodied (may or may not include hunter's quarries, curses, oath of enmities, etc. Up to you).
2) Solos can make saving throws at the start of their turn.
3) Use the MM3 and beyond type of rules for dragons, but for all creatures (they get a bonus action that can remove stun/dominate).
4) Give them teleporting powers to get around slowed/immobilize/restrain
5) Give them lots of attacks at higher than average attack bonus to compensate for attack penalties
6) Make solos immune to certain effects, but make sure the players are aware of it. Yeah its kind of a dick move, but gods should not be getting dominated.

 

[Saagael]

Saagael

I don't think you're breaking the rules system, at all! I think you're building it precisely as intended. An epic campaign (in any edition) should include modules that are:

EPIC Settings
EPIC Situations
EPIC Villains
EPIC Odds
EPIC Consequences

You have to think that these guys are veritable GODS with followers/minions/resources among the widest and richest imaginable. This in a medieval fantasy setting where magic weaves into the fabric of all things! What would be something so great that it would draw one heroes attention, let alone the entire band of heroes at the same time? I think the recent Avengers movie was a terrific example of this.

I completely agree. My game has perhaps 3 of the 5, and those being villains, odds, and consequences. The problem I hit is that I can't seem to wrap my brain around what "epic" means a lot of the time. I mentioned my players' trip to Celestia. I had a hell of a hard time trying to imagine what Bahamut's realm would be like, or what traps/hazards would be there.

On a macro scale I have a situation/setting, but when it comes to individual encounters, standard battles just aren't as thrilling, and its hard framing them in the context of the adventure. So I decided to ignore all the in-between stuff, and just do a few combats that were either huge, or had a quirk/gimmick (like the colossus fight I mention in the OP).

Here's an example from a recent module I ran for epic players, based upon Queen of the Demonweb Pits.

Setting - Llolth's High Priestess Fane/Llolth's home plane
Situation - Llolth finalizing plans to genocide elves of Cormanthor
Villains - High Priestesses/Yochlols/Powerful Demons/Driders/Llolth who must be defeated three separate times (transforms in power each defeat)
Odds - the players were outnumbered 5:1 to 10:1 in most encounters
Consequences - Each ROUND a players mortality was risked, failure in stopping Llolth meant the genocide of the elves

As you suggested, imagine skill challenges for setting, situation, and consequences CONSTANTLY through and between battles. They were walking deities however with magnificent resources so they sliced through it like butter. One of the first things I think "breaks" the system is the "odds". You can all but COMPLETELY IGNORE the recommended challenge levels. These parties are AMAZINGLY resilient and if you crack their defenses they have tons of ways to recover, quickly. Finally, I agree with you, and I COMPLETELY broke the rules surrounding the big bad (Llolth) at the end, and took a page from the old MMORPG scenario of having to fight her THREE SEPARATE TIMES, in three MORE CHALLENGING locations, in three SEPARATE forms! What was amazing to me...this is how the ORIGINAL module for Queen reads as written by EGG. Brilliant!

Good gaming!

My game sounds a lot like yours, only replace Lolth with Tiamat and Mephistopheles. When my players get to 29 they'll be delving into Tiamat's lair, fighting through hordes of her minions, and have to fight her separate times. In fact, the whole goal of using shadow of colossus tactics, and the mid-fight cut-scene skill challenges now is to get the players to learn the mechanics and process of them, because I'll be using both of those things when it comes to Tiamat.

 

[ender_wiggin]

Here are some of the things I've done:

Have a melee on the back of a massive dragon. Aerial maneuvers can push and pull the PCs around, and both sides can manipulate the creature into various actions.

Have a combat entirely in free-fall.

I ran a multi-stage combat against a giant starfish. The PCs fought one of its appendages first as a solo brute. When this creature reached 0 hp it represented the arm going limp. The PCs then ran up the limb towards the creature's core; this was represented as a skill challenge as the creature tried to brush them off with its other arms. Finally, they fought the creature's "core", which worked as a solo artillery.

Sometimes, I have each square in the grid represent something much greater than 5 feet. 20 ft. 100 ft. A city block, perhaps, depending on how epic you want your melees to feel. In heroic tier, the players can topple statues on their foes. In paragon tier, pillars. In epic, entire buildings. Mechanically, everything is really the same. Enemies on this "epic" sized grid can represent individual combatants of a caliber comparable to PCs or hordes of lower-level foes.

Having objects to interact with besides the enemies during a combat can really help. On many of my combats throughout the tiers, I've included statues or icons representing the settings deities somewhere on their battlefield. I describe the statues but don't tell the players which god they represent. If they take a minor action to pray to the correct deity, they are awarded a small mechanical benefit. As the players become more familiar with the setting's gods, I become more obscure with the statues (for example, one set was all knights with subtle differences between them, one all women, one all exotic fish people, leaving the PCs the task of teasing apart the details)

I think you've got the right idea when running end-campaign encounters. Each combat set should feel grand, and unique mechanics, if done elegantly, really make the experience. The existing rulebooks don't offer a very creative toolbox in this regard, but the community has thrown out some pretty interesting stuff.

 

[Saagael]

Here are some of the things I've done:

Have a melee on the back of a massive dragon. Aerial maneuvers can push and pull the PCs around, and both sides can manipulate the creature into various actions.

Have a combat entirely in free-fall.

Ooh, would it be a bother to post more details on how you ran these? Mechanics for them and such. Since the end-boss is Tiamat, I'd love to have a combat on her back as she's flying around.

I also plan on having a combat during a free-fall, so any tricks or tips you had for running that would be awesome.

I ran a multi-stage combat against a giant starfish. The PCs fought one of its appendages first as a solo brute. When this creature reached 0 hp it represented the arm going limp. The PCs then ran up the limb towards the creature's core; this was represented as a skill challenge as the creature tried to brush them off with its other arms. Finally, they fought the creature's "core", which worked as a solo artillery.[/QUOTE

I did something very similar for a kraken-like creature that burrowed out of the earth. Its an easy way to make a very grand boss fight.

Sometimes, I have each square in the grid represent something much greater than 5 feet. 20 ft. 100 ft. A city block, perhaps, depending on how epic you want your melees to feel. In heroic tier, the players can topple statues on their foes. In paragon tier, pillars. In epic, entire buildings. Mechanically, everything is really the same. Enemies on this "epic" sized grid can represent individual combatants of a caliber comparable to PCs or hordes of lower-level foes.

This is interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but I think this would make a really interesting encounter. Is there a particular instance you found this type of mechanic to really shine?

Having objects to interact with besides the enemies during a combat can really help. On many of my combats throughout the tiers, I've included statues or icons representing the settings deities somewhere on their battlefield. I describe the statues but don't tell the players which god they represent. If they take a minor action to pray to the correct deity, they are awarded a small mechanical benefit. As the players become more familiar with the setting's gods, I become more obscure with the statues (for example, one set was all knights with subtle differences between them, one all women, one all exotic fish people, leaving the PCs the task of teasing apart the details)[/QUOTE

I think the most I've done with this is having terrain that is destructable or usable. Walls that can be pushed over and the like. Again, in epic tier, the scale of "usable terrain" is so unusual that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it.

I think you've got the right idea when running end-campaign encounters. Each combat set should feel grand, and unique mechanics, if done elegantly, really make the experience. The existing rulebooks don't offer a very creative toolbox in this regard, but the community has thrown out some pretty interesting stuff.

Precisely! Eventually I'd like to have a pdf with combat add-ons that can make combats unique and diverse. Perhaps a good kickstarter idea.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

For example, I built a Conquest of Nerath-style system for mass combat when the players were commanding an army. It was a long battle (lasted 3 sessions), but was new enough that it didn't seem boring. However I found that to be too much of a change, as the players found it hard to grok the rules of.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of system you used here, and what was hard to grok about it. Because I think the epic tier is perfect for mass combat and dynastic warfare -- with PCs being the patriarchs or matriarchs of entire dynasties, of course.

Some of the OP's ideas are interesting and I'll have to consider some of them. My problem is that I'm already often finding running combat uninteresting since the PCs have so many powers with which to, if not nullify, hamper elites or solos to the point that I'm just rolling dice and I'm not sure how to deal with that. I've had elites not act until they were the only foe and solos spend half the fight dazed and/or prone.

I don't know if you've seen my Marvelous Monsters guide, but I've put quite a bit of time into play testing different strategies to address this very issue.