Breaking the Rules of Combat

[JamesonCourage]

For example I'll use my latest experiment: HP threshhold triggering skill challenges.

What I did is make it so that when an enemy (a boss enemy, preferably solo, but it should work in any combat) hits a certain hit point (2/3 total, 1/3 total, 0, etc), the players go into a "cut scene mode". All other combatants are ignored, and only the players act.

At the start of this cut scene, the enemy/ies to something deadly. For my combat, I had a dragon pin and try to crush and eat a PC. The players have 1 round to solve this issue using skills, describing how they go about their actions.

This sounds inspired by The D&D Boss Fight | The Angry DM: D&D Advice with Attitude:

The Core Boss Fight System
A Boss is a special type of Solo monster. Mechanically, it has the same hit points, defenses, attacks, damage, and save bonuses as any other Solo Monster, there are a few key differences. The biggest difference is that the Boss Monster consists of three separate stat blocks, called Stages, that it proceeds through as the fight progresses. All three Stages must be defeated or overcome as part of a single encounter and the total encounter is worth as much XP as a normal Solo Monster.

Each stage of the Boss Monster has exactly one third of the hit points of a normal Solo Monster and has no bloodied state. Each stage also includes a triggered action that is triggered when that Stage is reduced to 0 or fewer HP. That action causes the Boss Monster to perform some final action that usually results in it disengaging with the party and ultimately causes the Stage to be removed from the battle completely and replaced with the next Stage as if a new monster had entered the fight. The new Stage rolls initiative and acts normally. This action is called a Stage Transition.

The Stage Transition never requires an action (it’s ‘no action’) and it always includes language that indicates that it is usable regardless of what is happening. It will also specifically note that the old creature is removed from the battle and replaced by an entirely new creature so that nothing carries over from one Stage to the next. This is done to trump and/or prevent any odd rules interactions that might come. Nothing carries over from one Stage to the next; each Stage is completely modular.

The third Stage of a Boss Monster is always its Bloodied Stage. This allows the party to use abilities that key off of a bloodied monster. Thus, each Boss Monster in Stage 3 has a trait that indicates that is always considered bloodied.

Each Stage of the Boss Monster has one action point.

These are pretty much the core rules of the Boss Monster. In order to qualify as a Boss Monster under my system, those are the core rules. Everything else is really just window dressing.

He goes on to mention The D&D Boss Fight: Colmarr?s Monster Mayhem | The Angry DM: D&D Advice with Attitude, which has several submitted example creatures at the bottom of the article (Level 11 Artillery, Young Red Dragon Level 9 Boss Soldier, Level 25 Boss Brute, Ancient White Dragon Level Level 24 Boss Brute, Hobgoblin Chieftain Level 2 Boss Soldier, Level 12 Boss Skirmisher).

I don't play 4e, but it's some really interesting stuff. I had a battle in my RPG system recently where the PCs had to climb the giant glacier elemental that was fighting them, so they could hit the weak spot on top of its head (it was a close fight, but they pulled it off). Tips like this make for exciting games, no matter the edition, but 4e definitely seems to have a feel for this style of game.

Also, you may want to check out Solo Acts: The Worldbreaker, though I like the former approach more than the latter, personally. As always, play what you like

 

[corwyn77]

Good stuff! I'll keep this in mind when I eventually get around to integrating mass combat into my own campaign expectations.


Saagael beat me to the punch. If you download the pdf, you'll find the anti-effect mechanic that eventually became my favorite on page 14. Basically, the elite or solo can take a small amount of damage to make a save at the start of its turn. This means that PCs who inflict lots of effects aren't totally gimped when facing an elite or solo, but the monster can actually live up to the challenge it's supposed to provide.

(Note: My elites and solos don't have always-active save bonuses. So if you use my mechanic with published monsters, it'd be simplest to ignore the +5 start-of-turn bonus I give my solos.)

Whoops, I was expecting a thread called Marvelous Monsters and just assumed you posted the wrong link; sorry.

That is an interesting idea, though. I'll have to bring it up at the game tomorrow.

 

[Saagael]

This sounds inspired by The D&D Boss Fight | The Angry DM: D&D Advice with Attitude:

Also, you may want to check out Solo Acts: The Worldbreaker, though I like the former approach more than the latter, personally. As always, play what you like

Yup, that's blog series that inspired me to start thinking outside the box. However, after 10 levels of multi-stage bosses, I needed to make even THAT more unique and interesting.

 

[Saagael]

Bumping this thread with another idea I've had.

So I was watching the new Sherlock Holmes movies (with Robert Downy Jr.), and if you've seen the movies, you'll recognize the scenes where Holmes goes into precognitive state, where he plays out the sequence of a fight in his mind, and then goes on to flawlessly enact the previously predicted fight.

This made me think of a way to involve this sort of thing with players. Here's how I think it'd work:

At some point in the battle, without the players' knowledge, you take a "snapshot" of the game as it exists. Characters' hit points, bonuses, etc. All character and monster information is "saved".

Then the events of a round or two player out in the fight. The players don't notice anything has changed, but the enemy, preferably a big bad boss, knows that everything that's happening is an illusion or all in the PCs' heads.

During this time the DM can record d20 rolls that the players make. Attacks, saves, skills, etc. I'd guess by writing it down on a piece of paper something like "Fighter Bob rolls 13 for skills; fighter bob rolls 2 for attack", and so on. Alternatively, just have the players jot down the results of their d20 rolls.

Then, at some undisclosed amount of time, the combat snaps back to where the snapshot was taken earlier. HP, statuses, bonuses and the rest are all rolled back. Then, the players can continue the fight, knowing what will happen. I'd play the boss using the same moves and attacks, so the players can use the foreknowledge to their advantage. This would be represented by the players using the rolls that they made previously, but they could choose which roll they use when (so the attack rolled a natural 1 in the illusion, they could choose to have that roll be used on a save instead).

This is a first pass of an idea, and seems like it would require a lot of bookkeeping. I play on a virtual tabletop, so taking a snapshot of the combat is as easy as copy/pasting the combat map the players are. I'm not sure how viable it would be in person, but I think it'd be an interesting mechanic for a Lolth or Raven Queen based fight (or against any enemy that has some basis with the idea of fate).

What do you guys think?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

[MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION], you shouldn't worry much. Many of the WoBS epic encounters are spot on, specifically the Colossus battle. I enjoyed running that and my group enjoyed {barely} defeating it!
[MENTION=63309]corwyn77[/MENTION], I am currently running Module 10 in 4e with PCs of 25th level.. I would be glad to let you know more about how it worked out for me. With the warning that I have to trim for a monthly session of only 4 hours

On to the OP!

Epic play is definitely a different beast. I would prefer to have a single massive combat per story arc rather than the attrition run-up. This allows the PCs to go Nova.... and 4e epic monsters can be built to handle it {without hitting a Grind}.
I use the online monster builder almost as written and scale threats to the proper level. The biggest issue I have found is that the 'right' level for hit points and damage output is not the 'right' level for attack bonus. Last combat I had a BBEG who could hit the Sorcerer on a 2 or better.... which has led to a couple of things:

Ways I have 'broken' the rules:

Zones:
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Using 'Zone' combat, pretty much as detailed in a blog. I have posted in this forum regarding it a couple of months ago. Breaking free from the grid allowed for a more narrative approach and less of a 'pin down' scenario, while still giving the players viable choices.
I had to include an alternate rule for cover and concealment to get this to work, along with the aforementioned 'just hit' problem. In short, cover and/or concealment grant a 'miss die' to the PC {not to NPCS}. The size of this die depends on the distance from the attacker, ranging from a D10 when in melee to a D4 when a couple of zones away. Any miss die result of a 1 means a miss regardless of the attack roll. PCs gain cover by spending a minor action to duck under cover {if available} or can grant cover to another PC by attracting the BBEGs attention {move action}

End result: PCs working together, diving for cover, and doing more than just spamming powers. I wouldn't run every combat this way as 4e mechanics are strongly tied to the grid, but definitely fits some scenarios.
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Dreamscape rules {for Module 10 of the WoBS campaign}:
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PCs get 'dream points' that they can spend to attempt to change the dream. Each point spent grants a D6 to roll, altho only the top 2 results are counted. Things they PCs can do range from changing their own appearance, using an encounter power that they already used, alter the physical landscape {really hard} or alter how their powers interact.

One good example of this from last session, the sorcerer took a burst 1 power and amplified it to hit an entire zone {basically burst 5}.

A failed example, the same sorcerer attempted to be a cleric so he could 'healing word' the severely injured ranger... he had penalties since this action is very much against his character, and rolled pretty bad. So he changed in appearance to match Friar Tuck, complete with bald pate.
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Skill-enabled monsters:
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Inspired by a thread hereabouts, last session saw the team going up against swarms of Vargouilles. I worked in the story that Vargouille are usually solitary creatures that occasionally will develop a swarm around a key Vargouille that somehow holds the swarm together. The PCs had the option of just fighting the swarms normally, or they could use a move action to determine via a Nature skill check which of the flying critters is the center of the swarm {until the end of the PCs next turn} .. and then a move action of either athletics or acrobatics to maneuver into the swarm and into position to smash the key critter. If successful, the swarm would scatter leaving only a handful of minion Vargouilles around to harass the PCs. The key critter had 1/4th the hit points of the swarm itself, in this case 60.

In play, this was awesomeness. The players chose to try to cut through as fast as possible, identifying the key critter and diving in. The Ranger used acrobatics and almost danced his way into the first two, then struck as a striker does.. disbanding the swarm quickly. The barbarian charged into a swarm using athletics.. basically bull-rushing his way in, and similarly slaughtered the key critter.
The Vargouille minions attached themselves to the heroic PCs, draining their hit points in a very rapid fashion. 15 hit points per attached minion and three got their fangs into the Ranger...

The bard and sorcerer were busy keeping the remaining swarms at bay, and ended up killing one via straight damage.
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Amp up the danger level:
[sblock] An epic variant of the Choker had an attack that on a hit would grab and drag the PCs adjacent to the Choker. A follow-up attack that was limited to target adjacent, grabbed creatures dealt damage and forced a death save.
... yes, a death save. Needless to say, after the first attack the PCs did their best to avoid being grabbed!
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And last but not least, Don't hold back!
[sblock] At 24th level I ran them against the Aspect of Orcus.. as written in the Monster builder.. at the tail end of a three part encounter that was roughly an xp bundle of three level appropriate groups. Yes, some of the groups could be played against each other and/or avoided. But did they? of course not.
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The biggest advise I can give is to break the 3e encounter mentality and plan for both sides to go nova. The PCs can handle it, I usually have at least half the group bloodied and one PC on the verge of death.. but haven't been able to pull of a permanent PC death without resorting to cheating.

This has to be followed up with advise for all tiers, make the scene count. Avoid the featureless plains and get into free-fall, complex mazes, and exotic settings. Get into using terrain powers and traps/hazards. Make movement count. Go 3D. Add in alternate goals like opening a chest or stopping a ritual. Have monsters retreat/flee.

I look forward to reading more on this thread!