Breaking the stereotype of the chaste paladin

[Gez]

If you want to break the "chaste paladin" stereotype, read up Three Hearts and Three Lions. This book was the seminal inspiration for the D&D paladin (down to the special stallion and the cure disease ability), and the paladin here wasn't especially under a vow of chastity... He wasn't womanizing or promiscuous either, though.

This passage illustrates it best:

The real trouble was her own attitude toward him. Damn it, he did not want to compromise himself with her. A romp in the hay with someone like Meriven or Morgan was one thing. Alianora was something else. An affair with her wouldn’t be good for either party, when he meant to leave this world the first chance he got. But she made it hard for him to remain a gentleman. She was so shyly and pathetically hoping for an affair.​

(Alianora, by the way, was the prototype of the Swanmay.)

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Oops.

Uh, yeah, I mean Celibacy, yeah, that's the ticket...

No, I think you meant chaste when you wrote it. To be chaste is to refrain from sexual intercourse. To be celibate is to remain unmarried, but it can also refer to abstention from sex.

 

[shilsen]

I've often been intrigued by the concept of a philandering paladin, actually -- noticing as you do that chastity is not really even implied, much less mandated, by the paladin's code.

But I've never actually played one.

I've been planning to play a particularly foul-mouthed, heavy-drinking and womanizing paladin for a while now. Maybe for my next PC.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, I think you meant chaste when you wrote it. To be chaste is to refrain from sexual intercourse. To be celibate is to remain unmarried, but it can also refer to abstention from sex.

Uh, not quite.

To be chaste is to refrain from inappropriate sexual intercourse and to remain in a state of purity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chaste

To be celibate is to refrain from *all* sexual conduct whatsoever, including that of the marriage bed.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=celibate

For reference, Catholic married couples are enjoined to be chaste. Catholic priests are enjoined to be celibate.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Uh, not quite.

Uh, yes.

Main Entry: chas·ti·ty
Pronunciation: 'chas-t&-tE
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being chaste : as a : abstention from unlawful sexual intercourse b : abstention from all sexual intercourse c : purity in conduct and intention d : restraint and simplicity in design or expression
2 : personal integrity

Main Entry: cel·i·ba·cy
Pronunciation: 'se-l&-b&-sE
Function: noun
1 : the state of not being married
2 a : abstention from sexual intercourse b : abstention by vow from marriage

Definitions courtesy of m-w.com

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Uh, no.

Usage Note: Historically, celibate means only “unmarried” its use to mean “abstaining from sexual intercourse” is a 20th-century development. But the new sense of the word seems to have displaced the old, and the use of celibate to mean “unmarried” is now almost sure to invite misinterpretation in other than narrowly ecclesiastical contexts. Sixty-eight percent of the Usage Panel rejected the older use in the sentence He remained celibate [unmarried], although he engaged in sexual intercourse.

Modern usage trumps older definitions, since we are modern English speaking folk here.

My additional point above, however, stands: Catholic married couples are enjoined to be chaste in their love. They are also expected to have kids. Therefore, chaste cannot mean total abstinance.

Catholic priests take vows of celibacy, in addition to vows of chastity.

Therefore, in at least the religious sense (which is the tradition the D&D paladin is based on), the two are not interchangeable terms.

Furthermore:

Thou shalt keep thyself chaste for the sake of her whom thou lovest.

Keep thyself chaste, eh?

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Uh, no.

Modern usage trumps older definitions, since we are modern English speaking folk here.

Using celibacy to denote abstention from marriage is not archaic, sorry.

My additional point above, however, stands: Catholic married couples are enjoined to be chaste in their love. They are also expected to have kids. Therefore, chaste cannot mean total abstinance.

Clearly, you are not familiar with the concept of secondary, tertiary, etc. definitions. Chaste can and does mean sexual abstinence. However, your above usage is also appropriate.

Catholic priests take vows of celibacy, in addition to vows of chastity.

Therefore, in at least the religious sense (which is the tradition the D&D paladin is based on), the two are not interchangeable terms.

I did not say they are interchangeable.

 

[Desdichado]

What the hell? Who in the world invited the pedantic freaks to hijack the thread by arguing whether chaste or celibate was the more appropriate word to use here when clearly, not only does either one of them work fine, but everyone knew what was meant. Can we get back to the actual topic of the thread now, if you please?

 

[Brennin Magalus]

What the hell? Who in the world invited the pedantic freaks to hijack the thread by arguing whether chaste or celibate was the more appropriate word to use here when clearly, not only does either one of them work fine, but everyone knew what was meant. Can we get back to the actual topic of the thread now, if you please?

That's fine, but you are hardly free of pedantry yourself.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My original point remains:

If we are discussing D&D paladins, the more appropriate definitions of chaste to use are the "abstain from unlawful sex" and "keep yourself morally pure" definitions. For some paladins, the only way to meet the first goal is to abstain entirely.

The above posters seemed, however, to be discussing a celibate paladin - one who is not only unmarried, but abstains from all sexual intercourse as well.

As I mentioned, I don't see any reason to enforce the second, when the first should suffice for all paladin-related purposes.