Bringing Back the Prestige

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It seems too me that prestige classes are no longer prestigious. They rarely bother to include a roleplaying hook, such as how you join the class, or who do you learn the special skills from.

For instance, the Assassin PrC is only available from one thieve's guild in Greyhawk City (or south of there) - it's in the DMG anyway, but this information is not actually listed in the Assassin PrC, but in the general PrC section. If a player looked at this prestige class (and not the whole PrC section) they would have no idea about this requirement.

Players often want to take a prestige class, and (assuming the DM is willing) immediately start taking the requirements, which is a bit unrealistic. It's odd that a monk might start taking ranks of Knowledge (the planes) just in case they run into a Zerth Cenobite.

IMO the requirements of a prestige class should be just flavor. Wait, hold the flames! The DMG says that a prestige class should be as powerful as a base class, or slightly more powerful if the requirements are tough and require a high level character. I prefer the former type of prestige class myself - if the PrC isn't more powerful than a base class, then the player shouldn't need to actually pay a cost (they're basically multi-classing).

I really don't like prestige classes that have incredible power but require you to take several lame feats and skills in order to enter the prestige class. It doesn't help that a lot of PrCs with this kind of trade-off aren't well balanced either.

As an example, suppose one of my players wanted to be a duelist, and we agree that this is allowed. Now the player wants to open up Sword and Fist and look at the requirements, then follow them precisely. And come up with a roleplaying reason for following these precise requirements. At this point, I'd like to say "no". Instead, as long as the player acts like a duelist (uses light weapons, doesn't wear full plate, takes various feats that are useful for a light fighter, etc - I won't require him to take ranks in Perform) then they can take the prestige class as soon as they begin training with Florio.

(I am making the perhaps naive assumption that the duelist is a balanced prestige class that doesn't make you more powerful than a fighter. I've never seen a duelist in action - this is just an example.)

Who's Florio? The person they run into, gain respect from and train with.

I found myself in near total agreement with this article, which has the same title as this thread.
http://www.3rdedition.org/articles/viewer.asp?id=57

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

I agree with the fact that there seem to be waaaay too many prestige classes out there. I'm lucky not to have to deal with them, since I don't have too many books. Also, they don't seem to interest the players that much. One player took the Assassin PrC, and I will be becoming a Loremaster (eventually) in another game.

Finally, I agree that the article that was posted was very well written and touched the central point in the PrC dilemma.

Maitre D

 

[Methuslah]

I think myself that prestige classes have gotten way out of hand over the last few years. They should be far more specific thatn they are - instead of a general 'assassin', it should be a 'Greyhawk City Guild Assassin', or a 'Warrior of the Whispering Blade' - such thinsg hsould be setting specific. And having so many avaliable causes problems also - how many practitioners of so many prestige class would be realistically avaliable, anyway. When I start my next campaign, I intend to just draw up two lists - four common prestige classes and maybe a dozen less common ones.

I don't mind a PC having a prestige class as his ultimate goal, but only if it is well known. Joining the Order of the Rose is fine; planning to join the Secret Brotherhood of Ozmar the Mysterious is not. Finding out about such things, and the requirements for membership should be a challenge in itself, or what's the point?

Richard Tongue,
Editor, Almanac,
http://www.transfinitepublications.com
**ALMANAC ONE IS OUT!!!**
**VISIT http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1856 to buy it!**

 

[Terwox]

hmm. I do like this..
I think there should also be more written for dm's to create prestige classes.
And more for how to alter the prestige classes for specific characters.
For instance, in a game I ran, I had a psionicist who became a loremaster. Easy tweak, really -- +1 manifester level instead of +1 caster. It fit his concept really well (he was a shaper, and obsessed w/ being as intelligent as possible, so...)

But also, I think there should be more encouragement for players to work with their DM's on their prestige classes. I had a player putting one together for my game (although it panned out,) and if a player enjoys their rules, I think it can be really rewarding for some players to play through a class that they helped create, and that they worked with the DM with to fit their world and plot.

I hope this wasn't a hijack -- I think that along those lines, less prestige classes should be written, and more should be written for how to create prestige classes from the flavor in a campaign.

 

[A'koss]

Ugh... In all the campaigns I've run in 3e PrCs have always been very closely tied to the setting and joining them required some effort on the PCs part. Some would be easy to join (especially if you had allies already in the organization or you are simply "chosen" to join their ranks), others very difficult (highly secretive, highly selective groups). In almost every case you had to "prove" yourself worthy via a challenge, test or quest... or all three.

Today, I see "Prestige" Classes like... The Thug and it irks me to no end.


A'koss.

 

[Hardhead]

I, too, agree (though I wouldn't allow a character to take levels in one without meeting the requirements). But yeah, PrCs have gotten way too generic. You can still find books with good, non-generic flavorful classes (Bruce Cordel's Mindscapes has several), but most books seem filled with overly-generic classes. Compare PrCs like the Fist of Hextor in the early Sword and Fist to the almost completly generic PrCs that appeared in Masters of the Wild.

 

[Dave Turner]

Isn't the point of a generic PrC that the DM can graft that particular PrC to his setting with less fuss? It would be nice if every published PrC was accompanied by an organization that taught it, but it's hardly necessary.

 

[infax]

I agree with almost everything that has been written so far.

My only troube is that PrCs are also seen as the only way to customize characters system-wise besides feats. Several of them were designed to tailor a character better to some kind of specialization, not as a member of an organization necessarily.

Perhaps those should not be called "prestige" classes, and ideally not have so many strange requirements.

Anyway, I do have gripes with the limited flexibility 3E classes allow.

 

[Umbran]

The problem isn't in how many PrCs are "out there". "Out there" they do nothing at all. The problem only arises when a DM puts insufficient thought into bringing them "in here" - meaning into a particular game.

The role-play restrictions on entrance into a class are also problematic for the writer. The restrictions are supposed to be campaign-specific. So, if you're writing a PrC with the intent of it only beign used in a particular setting, you can write them up easily enough. However, ifyou intend the PrC to be easily portable into another game world, you've got a problem. The DM is likely going to have to chuck whatever you wrote, and rewrite it anyway. Putting in specific, flavorful details there may actually inadvertantly cause DM to pass over your PrC, because you're including preconcieved notions that don't fit their world.

What we could use, in the DMG, Dragon, or the like, is a good article on properly working PrCs into your game world.

Maybe the 3.5 DMG has such a section?

 

[3d6]

Dungeons and Dragons really needs the same distinction that exists in d20 Modern - the destinction between advanced classes and prestige classes.

In the d20 Modern system, advanced classes are like prestige classes, but serve to specialize a character, rather than symbolize membership in a special order or guild. In other words, what most published "prestige" classes actually are.

Once you establish that destinction, you can create classes that specialize (advanced classes) and classes that symbolize role-playing acheivements (prestige classes.)