Bringing Back the Prestige

[Negative Zero]

yeah, i agree that PrCs should be prestigous, but a lil more flexible on the prereq. here's what we do. you'd have say 8 requirements for a given PrC. two of which are mandatory. of the remaining 6, you'd have to meet any 3. the player may or may not know what those are. that'd depend on if he finds out in game. i find it works great.

~NegZ

 

[Steverooo]

Prestige classes are, indeed, too common, and therefore without too much prestige attached. As a GM, I don't allow them. As a player, I have seen several abilities that I would like to have, but no Prestige Class that I really wanted to take.

IMHO, Ex-Barbarian-1/Paladin-2/Fighter-2/Monk-1/Rogue-10/Ranger-10/ShadowDancer-1/Mage-1/Arcane Archer-1/Order of the Bow Initiate-1/Deepwoods Sniper-1 does not a good character make. YMMV.

One of the problems I see is that playres bring such a PC to the game, already equipped, and expect to be able to play it. As a GM, I have trouble seeing how all these organizations would be okay with their members joining all the others, and not advancing in their own.

Agh! I like special abilities, but I really don't like Prestige classes, at all. I have yet to find one that I'm willing to give up advancement in my base class(es) to get! I'd prefer to see a system for buying special abilities, instead (and before someone says it: FC2F)...

 

[Derulbaskul]

One of the problems with the prestige class phenomenon is because of the business of RPGs: prestige classes help sell books because it makes a book attractive to a player rather than just to the DM and the RPG industry needs players to also buy books to drive up the sales (that’s not, in any way, a criticism of RPG publishers: it is a business after all). So we have players buying books (or stealing them from kazaa) and now they want to get value for their money so they insist on being allowed to play a Double Monkey Gripping Heavy Huge Scythe Drow Dealer of Death prestige class which, of course, is far more powerful than the core classes.

Also, prestige classes have become an almost lazy way to avoid combining multiclass choices and feats to achieve a particular result which is really one of the strengths of the d20/3E system. I really hope that publishers include more flavour text and RP requirements each time a prestige class is introduced. Actually, for that reason I really like the FR prestige classes in general even though some are slightly overpowered. At least there is a solid backstory and “in game” rationale for each class’s existence and also a clear way of integrating same into the campaign.

Cheers
D

 

[Arken]

I don't actually have a problem with prestige classes being taken without any actual concrete role-play aspects such as joining a guild or organisation if the role being filled by the prestige class is to give the player access to a particular game function (such as a workable fighter/mage or even dare I say cleric/mage ) in such a case the prestige classs is just the natural development of the character the player wants. I also allow them to be taken if they clearly fit with a character concept that is being built without being fussy about multi-classing into others. If you don't consider an assassin and a theif acrobat to be seperate 'organisations' that are exclusive and instead tools to allow the player to create the character they want (i.e. an acrobatic assassin) then i don't really see a problem with extensive multiclassing. The only thing that needs to be done is modification of most prestige classes to ensure they're balanced but I'd do that anyway. Truly the more the merrier

 

[Plane Sailing]

IMO the requirements of a prestige class should be just flavor. Wait, hold the flames! The DMG says that a prestige class should be as powerful as a base class, or slightly more powerful if the requirements are tough and require a high level character. I prefer the former type of prestige class myself - if the PrC isn't more powerful than a base class, then the player shouldn't need to actually pay a cost (they're basically multi-classing).

I came to this decision some time ago, and I decided that for all the prestige classes in my current campaign world there would normally be the following entrance requirements:

1. Find the organisation (or a member of it)

2. Persuade them to train you.


In some cases the persuasion might be case of fulfilling a quest for them, in others it might be undergoing a series of tests (e.g. to become a Mendonnan Assassin IMC there are some tests you have to pass which involve hiding, moving silently and disguise. Some people will pass these on skill ranks, some on natural ability and most on a mixture of both. They then have to kill someone nominated by the Assassins guild (and the'll choose someone appropriately challenging). Pass all that, and they can get training in the assassin prestige class. Fail - and in this case they'll take out a contract on you )

I'm sad that prestige classes have degenerated into PC-powerups or PC configuration options. I think the original idea as expressed in the DMG was far superior. It is only a shame that WotC in the classbooks threw away those principles and everyone else followed suit (or ran alongside).

Ah well.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The role-play restrictions on entrance into a class are also problematic for the writer. The restrictions are supposed to be campaign-specific. So, if you're writing a PrC with the intent of it only beign used in a particular setting, you can write them up easily enough. However, ifyou intend the PrC to be easily portable into another game world, you've got a problem.

Actually I disagree with you here - I think that if the writer has given a good background and role-play restrictions for entry into a class it makes it far easier for a DM to introduce it into his game - all he needs to do is file off the serial numbers (i.e. change the location, change the deity name or whatever). At the moment the DM has to do lots of work or (more common I guess) just plug it in without thinking about campaign ramifications at all (the error which you identify in the first part of your post and which I fully agree with)

Cheers

 

[The Proconsul]

I must disagree.

It IS realistic to train for entering an organization, even if it's a secret one you have, in character, no idea exists.

Why is that so?

Because those organizations only accept characters who think along their lines in the first place. So it's merely coincidence that you qualify for the PC (again, IG).

The same is for the duelist: the requirements are good, because they (should) FORCE you to act like a duelist (provided the entry requierements are well thought out, of course!)

And finally, most good PCs I have seen have some kind of roleplaying entry requirement. (Including the Assassin).

 

[Shallown]

I don't have a problem with PrC's as they are presented in books, meaning, somewhat generic. Mainly becuase I understand that they have to be to fit into more Campaigns.
I see the whole PrC being in the GM's realm and up to their own playing style to introduce, add role playing elements etc.

For Example. I have 4 people of 6 who have PrC's in my game here is how they got there.

Bladesinger - Back ground story during the recent war the character met and fought beside and then was rescued by a Bladesinger. he set about from day one to be one. Eventually after mastering the skills neccessary he applied to a bladesinger for training.

Windrider - Started as a ranger/fighter who was a scout during the aforementioned war. Became interested in riding and such as the game progressed then stumbled upon a unique steed (Large 1/2 silver dragon wolf) and wanted to learn how to ride it. The trainer said only certain people trained as wind riders had ever mastered such an unusual creature so he petioned and recieved training. (This was a surprise to the GM and player. He gave the 1 level required warning spent the skills points needed in ride to qualify at his next level. It was an instant change in direction or more like a focusing on what he had been dancing around before as a mounted warrior.)

Sacred Exorcist - Decided after repeated encopunters that having these skills would be useful went from church to church to find a sect who could teach him. He eventually did. (he was a cleric of no one God which knocked out a lot of prestige classes since he was not dedicated to any one God. Those churches turned him away as not being devoted to X God)

Spellfire channeler - Hasn't made this class yet but a fighter/rogue is working on it. Won't get it until like 15th level due to cross class skil requirements. I wouldn't withhold this class becuase the character is one of only 3 people who have spellfire in the world. And the other two are being held hostage/captive in an attempt to flood the world with demon's. He wants this class becuase he knows it once existed and has a sort of journal/instruction guide to what it does and how. He knows (or thinks he does) that having it will help him stop this flood.

But as written, none of those PrC's have the flavor, I think, it is the GM's responsibility to put into the Class. I can still use the generic info but I make them very campaign specific and character oriented. This is the way I want to do it not the way every one should. Just my take on PrC's and Flavor.

later

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Just a question...

...which might touch upon one of the root problems in the concept of prestige classes...how do you measure the prestige of a character in D&D/your campaign?

The point is that most often, the reputation of a character, shaped by his deeds, is kinda ignored in the rule system...so what is the difference of joining the prestigious Order of the Holy Whatsnot if it doesn't really change how your PC is viewed by the people?

And I know it can be easily done in roleplaying the effects out...but is that SO obvious to everybody?

 

[LuYangShih]

Prestige Classes are a tool. Find the ones you want to use, and fit them to your campaign world. Prestige Classes are neccessarily generic, in most cases, to allow them to be brought into a specific world or setting by a DM. You can further specialize or explain the classes yourself, in your own world.

For example, taking the Assassin class, and a way I would modify them... In many worlds, ressurection magic is accessible and practical, especially for the more powerful people in the world. What is the point of assassinating someone if they will simply be ressurected upon the morrow? So, to counteract this, a specialized group arose, the Assassins. The Assassins recieve special training to eliminate targets and are shown ways to kill that will prevent ressurection magics from functioning on a target that is killed by the Assassins Death Attack. At 10th level, the Assassin recieves a "Final Death" ability similar to that of the Hunter Of The Dead, only it works on living targets. Upon reaching 10th level, all of the Assassins attacks, not just the Death Attack, prevent ressurection magic from functioning. Because of this ability, all who seek to eliminate someone permanently, go to the Assassins Guild.